Flute Tone Quality

[jenfen]

Hello Forum!

I've been lurking here for a while, and now want to pick your collective brains.

A little background on me: I'm a classically trained flutist, although I haven't played in some time and actually sold my Boehm instruments a few years ago. I have been a fan of Irish music for years and I've recently taken up the whistle. I am studying Irish music with a local whistle/flute/pipe player, who is a great musician and teacher. This has been a wonderful experience for me and it's opening my eyes and ears to a new world of learning music.

I'm now thinking about taking up the flute. I've read a lot of your posts about different makers, and have some questions, particularly regarding tone quality. I've read that the Hamilton flutes are known for their robust tone. Is it possible to make a sweet sound on these instruments too? Are there specific flutes you would suggest that are known for their ability to produce both robust and sweet sounds? Or does all of this depend on the player?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

Jennifer

[chas]

It's quite possible to get a sweet sound from a Hammy. I had one for a few years. I don't play with the big, fat sound that Hammy flutes are famous for, and I was really impressed with its potential for a sweet sound. Especially in the upper octave it liked that pure sound.

But, as you alluded, it does depend on the player.

[Akiba]

Ask your teacher and start experimenting. In my experience, Casey Burns' flutes and Dave Copley flutes are the most pliable flutes, able to get a sweet mellow tone but can be pushed to being more rough/robust. Olwell's are good for this as well--not the Hammy, though. Again, it does depend on the player, of course.

[jim stone]

One concern is how comfortable the flute will be in your hands, which depends in part on features like hole size, spacing, bore size, weight, etc. Certainly there are people who find the Hammy a 'handful.' e.g. myself. You might want to start there--how big are your hands, how slender your fingers, etc.

[Gromit]

...specific flutes you would suggest that are known for their ability to produce both robust and sweet sounds

I'd go with a Rudall style flute rather than a Pratten (for a beginner) which was the advice I had from Mick Hand (great flute player) at Willie Clancy week flute classes during the mid 1980's - Hamilton flutes used to be based on Pratten style flutes.

[jim stone]

right. Rudally flutes (both originals and contemporary copies), tend to have a sweet second octave. Prattens, while they may have a fine second octave, have a lot of power in the first octave--they can tend to honk. Both are very beautiful, in fact, but offer different challenges. The suggestion to go for a Rudally flute makes sense, IMO, for someone who has classical training.

[tin tin]

Because you're coming from a Boehm flute background, one thing to consider is intonation. Some simple system flutes (by design--normally) have intonation that may feel a bit weird to a Boehm player, things like a flat D, etc. The wooden flute is a different enough instrument already, I'd go for something with a pretty even-tempered scale. (Edited to add: Copley flutes are excellent in this and many other regards.)

[Akiba]

I disagree with the recommendation of a Rudall flute. They are harder to play and more challenging to get different shades of tone. Prattens are easier to play and easier to produce different timbres. Actually, the flutes I recommended, the Casey Burns (Standard Model specifically) and Dave Copley are hybrid, modern flutes that are neither strickly Rudall or Pratten but somewhere in between; this type of flute I find works best. I also come from the classical Boehm world and have found these two makers best suit me.

[jenfen]

Thanks to everyone for your responses! I wondered about the Pratten / Rudall comparison and which would work better for me. I used to play a Folkers and Powell baroque flute - Denner I think. I wonder if that is close to the Rudall in terms of the embouchure hole?

There are so many makers out there and it's kind of frustrating that I can't try them out. The flute that stands out in my searches is John Gallagher's keyless small hole Rudall. I am still tempted by the Hamilton flute.

I also am intrigued by the used Olwells. There is a fruitwood model on the instrument exchange board. Does anyone have thoughts about this instrument? Are Olwells based on Pratten flutes?

Thank you so much, again. I really appreciate your thoughts.

Jennifer

[Peter Duggan]

Thanks to everyone for your responses! I wondered about the Pratten / Rudall comparison and which would work better for me. I used to play a Folkers and Powell baroque flute - Denner I think. I wonder if that is close to the Rudall in terms of the embouchure hole?

Even if it was a late/crossover model like a Palanca, it's likely to have a considerably smaller embouchure than any normal 19th-century/Irish-style flute.

(Edit: sorry, missed the 'Denner' bit. That's a tiny, almost circular embouchure. But the point still stands; they'll all be smaller.)

I also am intrigued by the used Olwells. There is a fruitwood model on the instrument exchange board. Does anyone have thoughts about this instrument? Are Olwells based on Pratten flutes?

They make Rudalls, Nicholsons and Prattens. But I think this particular one for sale is a early one and might not 'officially' be any of those. It's nice; I've met the owner (two years ago) and tried it. It's an easy blower. And (this might or might not be helpful depending where you're based) it's in the UK.

[paddler]

Baroque flutes have quite different feel and playing characteristics to flutes designed specifically for Irish traditional music. As Peter said, the embouchure holes are smaller, as are the tone holes. The tuning also tends to be different because baroque flutes are optimized to be fully chromatic using just a single key and cross fingering, whereas Irish flutes are either keyless and not fully chromatic (optimized to play well in D and G and relative minor keys), or partially or fully chromatic using various numbers of keys. Also, baroque flutes have a beautiful sweet tone, but don't have the volume and bark of an Irish flute.

On this forum we spend a lot of time talking about the differences between Rudall and Pratten-style flutes, as if they represent points at opposite ends of a wide spectrum, but in reality Irish flutes based on Rudall antiques or Pratten antiques tend to be very similar to each other, in comparison to the overall spectrum of transverse flute designs, and both are quite far from, say, a baroque flute, or a cylindrical bore Boehm flute. Furthermore, modern makers tend to tweak the original Pratten or Rudall designs to "improve" performance for playing ITM at A=440 hz, and the net result is that the resulting flutes are even more similar to each other. So much so, that some of the top modern maker's "Pratten" flutes are extremely similar to other top modern maker's "large hole Rudall" flutes, for example. Because if this, I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference which you choose.

In light of this, I don't think it is very helpful, beyond a certain point, to talk/read/write about these differences. Its much better to try out a few different flutes and see what embouchure cuts, tone hole size/spacing, and bore profiles you prefer in practice. Depending on where you live, you might be able to meet up with other players and briefly try out a few different flutes.

I would say that the spectrum of options most commonly used for ITM includes (in order of decreasing bore, tone hole, and embouchure size and volume, and probably increasing sweetness ... but of course, much of this is subjective): Pratten-style, large hole Rudall-style, medium hole Rudall-style, small-hole Rudall, and American models such as Firth/Hall/Pond, then various French models ... but these are not often used for ITM, so are probably just off one end of the spectrum). If you can get your hands on one of each of these style of flutes to try out you should be able to get a few data points and a good feel for the options.

If you can't meet up with other players to try out a variety of different instruments, I would suggest just choosing one of the options above (either Pratten/large hole Rudall, or a medium hole Rudall) and just try it for a while. If it works out fine, if not, sell it and move up or down the spectrum based on your preferences.

There are a lot of good modern makers of Irish flutes (you see a lot of names come up here). There are also a lot of nice antiques that can offer an inexpensive path into keyed, fully chromatic flutes for ITM, especially if you get one from someone knowledgeable who has restored it and verified that it plays well at A=440. Again, there are several people on this forum who do that work, and it takes a lot of the risk out of buying an antique directly (untried) from eBay, say.

[Caspermilktoast]

My 2 cents..

I started off with and still love playing Boehm flutes as well.

I have owned flutes of different styles (Rudall, Pratten Hawkes) and from many makers including, Murray, Gallagher, Olwell, Byrne, Copley, Burns and a few more.

First off let me say that you wont go wrong with a Copley, very sweet sound and easy to play. Copley in my opinion is very underrated. His workman ship is top notch, bores are polished as smooth as the outside, no tooling marks, and hes is really a great guy to work with.

That being said I feel that the whole Pratten vs Rudall thing can be over stated. Definitely a difference but I find that most of the difference comes with the embouchure cut. The flutes ive owned or own that are from what are known by some as "elite" makers, Olwell, Gallagher, Bryne, all have similar cuts and to me a play similar regardless if it is a Rudall or Pratten type.

Great place to try and buy from is The Irish Flute Store. You have a week to try a flute or flutes with no obligation to buy. I have bought and sold with them and have nothing but good to say.

Good luck!

[Peter Duggan]

That being said I feel that the whole Pratten vs Rudall thing can be over stated.

One of the things I like about Copleys... they're 'just' Copleys (influenced by Hawkes). And I'd agree with Akiba above that they're 'pliable flutes, able to get a sweet mellow tone but can be pushed to being more rough/robust.' I've certainly learned to get a fair edge on mine!

[bradhurley]

I agree that it's frustrating that you can't just walk into a shop and try 20 different flutes. Wouldn't that be a great option to have!

There are a lot of conflicting opinions expressed in the comments above, so I'll add my own conflicting opinion:

If you've played one flute by any maker, you've played one flute by that maker. It's not like "if you've played one Hamilton you've played them all." I've tried five or six Hamilton flutes over the years, and every one of them sounded different to me. And the same goes for flutes I've tried from different makers. No two flutes are exactly alike, and two flutes by the same maker can be quite radically different from each other. Sometimes that's on purpose, sometimes it's probably just chance.

Listen to Tara Diamond playing her Hamilton flute and then listen to Hammy Hamilton playing one of his flutes. Night and day in terms of tone, volume, etc. Tara gets a lovely mellow tone out of her Hamilton; Hammy himself is one of the most powerful players I've ever heard, with a crisp laser-focused tone that could easily break crystal glasses in a dining room. Same maker, two different flutes, two very different styles of playing.

The other thing I'd say is that a flute that may seem hard to play at first can sound awesome after a few months and even more awesome after a few years, so as long as you have a flute by a reputable maker it's worth taking the time to learn its idiosyncracies and sweet spots, and learn how to make that particular flute sing. Kevin Crawford once let my try his first Grinter D flute, and I found it almost impossible to get a decent sound out of it. He, of course, had no trouble at all.

[Cathy Wilde]

What Brad said, and so well (of course!)

John Gallagher is making some very fine flutes these days. Several classical-crossover friends have bought his small-holed Rudalls, and they sound lovely. Like many of the "newer" flutes, including David Copley's, they seem very rewarding to play right away. If I was trading in my Olwell those two makers would be at the top of my consideration list.