Empire Brass Correspondence
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:12 am
FURTHER TO POSTS ABOVE re: EMPIRE BRASS AND TO TERRY McGEE'S "Help! Ethical Dilemma!" THREAD........
Here is the correspondence I have had with Vikram Vaisoha of Empire Brass in India subsequent to their posting in this thread. It seems rather a "you can take a horse to water" kind of a situation.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jem Hammond
To: info@synergyhouse.net
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:27 PM
Subject: Chiff & Fipple thread
Hello Vikram/Empire Brass,
Can I prompt you to have another look at the thread you recently contributed to on Chiff & Fipple and the discussion of your flutes? When you have read my post, I'd be very happy to talk to you if that might be helpful. I'm not a shop or a wholesaler, just a flute lover who buys and sells and re-conditions old flutes. If you check out some of my contributions to C&F on other topics you will see that I know what I am talking about. I think you almost have a good product that could be improved, without major investment in production, to a point where it could get a good reputation - which despite your comments and testimonials, it does not yet have, or frankly, deserve. Its faults are the more annoying because they could so readily be corrected! It is certainly in a different class from the mostly dreadful things that come out of Pakistan (and maybe from other Indian sources than yourself) masquerading as flutes, but it could so easily be so much better! I am sure you could make a proper D flute at A=440 with slightly re-designed keys for much the same costs as the present version. There would be some initial redesign and re-tooling costs, I suppose, but then you would just resume manufacture on the same principles as at present, with perhaps better quality control, especially regarding embouchure cut.
Regards,
Jem Hammond (Jemtheflute)
----- Original Message ----
From: Synergy House <info@synergyhouse.net>
To: Jem Hammond <jemhammond@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Saturday, 13 October, 2007 12:12:43 PM
Subject: Re: Chiff & Fipple thread
Hi Jem,
Thanks for your email. I do agree that we can improve our product quite easily but we want to go through that process with a regular distributor which we are now looking to set up in Europe now that our American side of our operations is in place. We do expect to address these quality issues in the coming year by finalising a branding arrangement directly or indirectly. So far our sales have been on price points due to which we havent worked on quality much but are expecting to up the ante a bit shortly once we finalise our distribution for our rather small production capacity of this line due to which we havent paid much attention to it so far.
Warm Regards.
Vikram Vaisoha.
www.synergyhouse.net
----- Original Message -----
From: Jem Hammond
To: Synergy House
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: Chiff & Fipple thread
Hi again Vikram.
Thankyou for your response. I wish you good luck with improving the flutes and marketing them in future.
I would be interested in any specific responses you may have to the precise technical/design problems I outlined in my C&F posting - were you aware of those exact faults; have other people made the same points to you; are you going to improve those particular features and if so, how? I would be doubtful whether simply setting up marketing and wholesale mechanisms would necessarily drive you to effect the vitally necessary re-design. This is not just a quality control issue! Many mainstream music retail outlets that sell "traditional" instruments as a sideline do not have the expertise or interest in such instruments to identify the problems! If you don't sort out those foot keys in particular, it won't matter what systems you set up, the flutes will still be irritatingly sub-standard - and unnecessarily so! Similarly, you need to make sure that your main product is a flute in D at A=440 Hz, not an E-flat flute at A=440 or a High Pitch instrument. Of course, if you get the design and pitch issues sorted out properly, then there would undoubtedly be a market (albeit not a huge one) for instruments in E-flat, F and both high and low B-flat as well as the bigger market for standard D flutes.
Perhaps you would like to make your responses on the C&F thread as well as to me personally?
Best wishes,
Jem Hammond.
----- Original Message ----
From: Synergy House <info@synergyhouse.net>
To: Jem Hammond <jemhammond@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Friday, 26 October, 2007 1:24:12 PM
Subject: Re: Chiff & Fipple thread
Hi Jem,
thanks for your email. sorry I took so long in replying since I got caught up with another shipment that has fortuantely now left and all is on schedule.
as for these instruments and quality issues, the reason I put distribution to be key is that unless we have a large enough market that is willing to pay, we would leave the product as it is to sell at bottom prices online etc..we would however further develop the product once we have a regular market for them..
I will try to get back to this thread on that website which I had addressed back then since it greatly affected our reputation..I would however still be happy to have a dialogue with you at that site..could you give me a link if available? thanks.
Vikram Vaisoha.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jem Hammond
To: Synergy House
Sent: Friday, 26 October, 2007 9:24:05 PM
Subject: Re: Chiff & Fipple thread
Hi Vikram,
No need to apologise - we're all busy! Thanks for replying when you could.
The link to the Chiff&Fipple thread you posted on before is: http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=34685
Addressing your latest remarks, with respect, although I understand in part your commercial point, I think you are "putting the cart before the horse". If you do succeed in setting up distribution of your present product, you will simply get a name for selling a poor one - and if you then improve it you will have trouble overcoming that established image. That would be a pity. I won't re-write the points I made in my previous e-mails or on the C&F thread - but I would draw them to your attention again. I think you would have a better chance of a good distribution deal and of growing your market if you get the product right first! As I did say before, I think that could easily be accomplished.
Surely you could at least get some samples of an improved version ready with relatively little trouble or cost? If you were to do so, I would advocate you sending them for review to some of us with some expertise in these instruments who move in the circles that would be your potential market. Mainstream European Classical/Popular music shops do not have that expertise or market. Personally, I would certainly be willing to follow up the suggestions for revised design I have already made to you by reviewing a product made accordingly - helping to remove any remaining deficiencies and then willingly recommending a satisfactory end-product. The world of Irish Traditional Music works more by personal contact, "networking" and special interest community interaction than it does by standard commercial routes.
Have a look on C&F at the way some makers send out "review copies" of their instruments, sometimes to specific reviewers, sometimes on a "tour", then use the feedback to improve the product and also benefit commercially from the recommendations they receive. That is a far more effective marketing ploy in this specialist field than getting a couple of your flutes into every high street music shop where neither staff nor most customers will really know what it is and will treat it with disdain as "inferior" to a modern orchestral instrument.
Seriously, you have an opportunity for help with design improvement, expert review and commendation - not necessarily with me - I am not trying to empire build! You could easily research the online wooden flute and Irish music networks and ask for volunteers or hand pick advisers and reviewers. I am sure you would get a group of suitable people quite readily if you made it clear that you wanted to get your product up to an acceptable standard and commit to keeping it there before going into general supply. If you flood the market with deficient merchandise, no-one will take you seriously and your present borderline (a trifle unfairly so, and by misassociation with some real rubbish that comes from the subcontinent!) reputation will be permanently damaged.
I really would like to see you get these flutes right, but, to return to my equine metaphor, "you can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"!
Please do feel free to keep in touch. I shall be interested in how things develop for you.
Very best wishes,
Jem Hammond.
To date I have had no further reply, but I don't anticipate a change of heart/message!
Rama, was it these guys you corresponded with or another crew?
Here is the correspondence I have had with Vikram Vaisoha of Empire Brass in India subsequent to their posting in this thread. It seems rather a "you can take a horse to water" kind of a situation.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jem Hammond
To: info@synergyhouse.net
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:27 PM
Subject: Chiff & Fipple thread
Hello Vikram/Empire Brass,
Can I prompt you to have another look at the thread you recently contributed to on Chiff & Fipple and the discussion of your flutes? When you have read my post, I'd be very happy to talk to you if that might be helpful. I'm not a shop or a wholesaler, just a flute lover who buys and sells and re-conditions old flutes. If you check out some of my contributions to C&F on other topics you will see that I know what I am talking about. I think you almost have a good product that could be improved, without major investment in production, to a point where it could get a good reputation - which despite your comments and testimonials, it does not yet have, or frankly, deserve. Its faults are the more annoying because they could so readily be corrected! It is certainly in a different class from the mostly dreadful things that come out of Pakistan (and maybe from other Indian sources than yourself) masquerading as flutes, but it could so easily be so much better! I am sure you could make a proper D flute at A=440 with slightly re-designed keys for much the same costs as the present version. There would be some initial redesign and re-tooling costs, I suppose, but then you would just resume manufacture on the same principles as at present, with perhaps better quality control, especially regarding embouchure cut.
Regards,
Jem Hammond (Jemtheflute)
----- Original Message ----
From: Synergy House <info@synergyhouse.net>
To: Jem Hammond <jemhammond@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Saturday, 13 October, 2007 12:12:43 PM
Subject: Re: Chiff & Fipple thread
Hi Jem,
Thanks for your email. I do agree that we can improve our product quite easily but we want to go through that process with a regular distributor which we are now looking to set up in Europe now that our American side of our operations is in place. We do expect to address these quality issues in the coming year by finalising a branding arrangement directly or indirectly. So far our sales have been on price points due to which we havent worked on quality much but are expecting to up the ante a bit shortly once we finalise our distribution for our rather small production capacity of this line due to which we havent paid much attention to it so far.
Warm Regards.
Vikram Vaisoha.
www.synergyhouse.net
----- Original Message -----
From: Jem Hammond
To: Synergy House
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: Chiff & Fipple thread
Hi again Vikram.
Thankyou for your response. I wish you good luck with improving the flutes and marketing them in future.
I would be interested in any specific responses you may have to the precise technical/design problems I outlined in my C&F posting - were you aware of those exact faults; have other people made the same points to you; are you going to improve those particular features and if so, how? I would be doubtful whether simply setting up marketing and wholesale mechanisms would necessarily drive you to effect the vitally necessary re-design. This is not just a quality control issue! Many mainstream music retail outlets that sell "traditional" instruments as a sideline do not have the expertise or interest in such instruments to identify the problems! If you don't sort out those foot keys in particular, it won't matter what systems you set up, the flutes will still be irritatingly sub-standard - and unnecessarily so! Similarly, you need to make sure that your main product is a flute in D at A=440 Hz, not an E-flat flute at A=440 or a High Pitch instrument. Of course, if you get the design and pitch issues sorted out properly, then there would undoubtedly be a market (albeit not a huge one) for instruments in E-flat, F and both high and low B-flat as well as the bigger market for standard D flutes.
Perhaps you would like to make your responses on the C&F thread as well as to me personally?
Best wishes,
Jem Hammond.
----- Original Message ----
From: Synergy House <info@synergyhouse.net>
To: Jem Hammond <jemhammond@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Friday, 26 October, 2007 1:24:12 PM
Subject: Re: Chiff & Fipple thread
Hi Jem,
thanks for your email. sorry I took so long in replying since I got caught up with another shipment that has fortuantely now left and all is on schedule.
as for these instruments and quality issues, the reason I put distribution to be key is that unless we have a large enough market that is willing to pay, we would leave the product as it is to sell at bottom prices online etc..we would however further develop the product once we have a regular market for them..
I will try to get back to this thread on that website which I had addressed back then since it greatly affected our reputation..I would however still be happy to have a dialogue with you at that site..could you give me a link if available? thanks.
Vikram Vaisoha.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jem Hammond
To: Synergy House
Sent: Friday, 26 October, 2007 9:24:05 PM
Subject: Re: Chiff & Fipple thread
Hi Vikram,
No need to apologise - we're all busy! Thanks for replying when you could.
The link to the Chiff&Fipple thread you posted on before is: http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=34685
Addressing your latest remarks, with respect, although I understand in part your commercial point, I think you are "putting the cart before the horse". If you do succeed in setting up distribution of your present product, you will simply get a name for selling a poor one - and if you then improve it you will have trouble overcoming that established image. That would be a pity. I won't re-write the points I made in my previous e-mails or on the C&F thread - but I would draw them to your attention again. I think you would have a better chance of a good distribution deal and of growing your market if you get the product right first! As I did say before, I think that could easily be accomplished.
Surely you could at least get some samples of an improved version ready with relatively little trouble or cost? If you were to do so, I would advocate you sending them for review to some of us with some expertise in these instruments who move in the circles that would be your potential market. Mainstream European Classical/Popular music shops do not have that expertise or market. Personally, I would certainly be willing to follow up the suggestions for revised design I have already made to you by reviewing a product made accordingly - helping to remove any remaining deficiencies and then willingly recommending a satisfactory end-product. The world of Irish Traditional Music works more by personal contact, "networking" and special interest community interaction than it does by standard commercial routes.
Have a look on C&F at the way some makers send out "review copies" of their instruments, sometimes to specific reviewers, sometimes on a "tour", then use the feedback to improve the product and also benefit commercially from the recommendations they receive. That is a far more effective marketing ploy in this specialist field than getting a couple of your flutes into every high street music shop where neither staff nor most customers will really know what it is and will treat it with disdain as "inferior" to a modern orchestral instrument.
Seriously, you have an opportunity for help with design improvement, expert review and commendation - not necessarily with me - I am not trying to empire build! You could easily research the online wooden flute and Irish music networks and ask for volunteers or hand pick advisers and reviewers. I am sure you would get a group of suitable people quite readily if you made it clear that you wanted to get your product up to an acceptable standard and commit to keeping it there before going into general supply. If you flood the market with deficient merchandise, no-one will take you seriously and your present borderline (a trifle unfairly so, and by misassociation with some real rubbish that comes from the subcontinent!) reputation will be permanently damaged.
I really would like to see you get these flutes right, but, to return to my equine metaphor, "you can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"!
Please do feel free to keep in touch. I shall be interested in how things develop for you.
Very best wishes,
Jem Hammond.
To date I have had no further reply, but I don't anticipate a change of heart/message!
Rama, was it these guys you corresponded with or another crew?