silver flutist switching to wooden flute

[talasiga]

Every new instrument that is accepted by a tradition brings with it certain limitations and certain advantages. A tradition doesn't just have one voice but many voices.

I enjoyed the way Sarah Allen played her alto flute. Yes, she plays in a way different to how traditional flute may have been played to date. But she brings a new type of flute to interpret her tradition with new approaches just as many good guitarists bring a new interpretation to the harp compositions of O'Carolan.

[bepoq]

I think that's more or less what I said with regard to different and new instruments - hence my list of them. But such change takes place over time and is usually accomplished by musicians who already have significant grounding in the tradition. However, the original point is to do with playing Irish Traditional Music on the silver flute, and as an illustration of that to a beginner, Sara's playing is not the most helpful simply because that sort of playing is not a dominant voice in the tradition, and because there is a reason for that which lies in the practicalities of the instrument. If Lala wishes to attempt to try and shift the tradition in a new direction along with musicians like Sara Allen and Finnegan from without (Lala, as new player of the style) or from one of the edges of it (Sara, as established innovator) then Flook would be a fine example. If you wish to learn from the heart of the tradition, Lala, and then take it where you will, Flook is not such a good example of where to begin, and in spite of the theoretical validity of what Talasiga is saying about Flook, tradition in general and the silver flute, I would think twice about swallowing it whole.

I take it, by the way, that you are a traditional Irish musician, Talasiga, and that is the perspective you give your advice on playing traditional Irish music from?

[Denny]

been almost a year since Lala said anything.....

[daiv]

Tom Doorley of Danu, equally adept at both types of flute, never plays Irish on the boehm flute which I think is telling.

the only thing that is telling of is whether or not tom doorley plays irish music on the silver flute. it does not say why--does he not like playing irish music on the boehm flute? has he never bothered to learn how? is it an image thing?

----

i have played the silver flute for irish music, and--like joanie madden--i just fell into it. when i was a child, i did not know there was another sort of flute for irish music. i am sure i saw other flutes, but i never noticed them; i only noticed that my uncle played irish music on the silver flute. i also thought that the flute was a guy's instrument and the fiddle a girl's because my uncle played the flute and my grandma played the fiddle.

i dont remember when i found out there was such a thing as a wooden flute, but it was probably when i was about 17, when i had been playing irish music on the silver flute for years and years. i never played with anyone besides my grandma or my uncle, and i believe the first flute player i ever heard playing the wooden flute was tom doorley.

i would agree that the silver flute can be very difficult to play irish music, but i have been shoving that piece of metal into my face for more than half my life, so to me it doesnt seem as hard is it probably would to someone else. i learned very quickly to view the flute as two instruments, just as fiddle players play the fiddle in a session and the violin in an orchestra, even though they are the same instrument. in band i would play with one embouchure and set of fingerings, in irish music another.

i agree that if you did not make that distinction, and tried to play irish music on the silver flute as if it were the same instrument, it would not work out very well at all. james galway even said in an interview once that he does not [yet] play irish music, only irish tunes, and that if he were to learn how to play irish music, he would have to completely relearn how to play the silver flute.

that being said, if it is a matter of situation, as it was with me, there would be no reason not to learn how to play irish music on the silver flute. i would and have suggested it, as long as the player understands that they will have to relearn their approach to the entire instrument. i think for the most part, how difficult it is is due to perspective.

my viewpoint is different than most people, as most people did not grow up with a professional, irish flute player as their uncle who happens to play the silver flute. as for now i play both silver flute and wooden flute, and from my perspective, i find complex ornamentation easier on the silver flute than on the wooden flute, though i can manage both just fine. also, try as i might, i can hardly slide into notes on my wooden flute, but i can do it on my silver flute, even though technically it is more difficult; the difference in that regard is that i have been working on sliding notes on the silver flute for around 4 or 5 years and on sliding on the wooden flute for at most a year or two.

[mahanpots]

Hi,

I'm new to this site because I really want to get into Irish music. I love the silver flute, and I haven't bought a wooden irish flute yet. I have pretty small hands, so I was considering the Ergonomic Standard by Casey Burns or the Small-Handed Flute by same.

I have been looking for an irish flute teacher in my town (San Antonio, TX) and cannot find one. Does anyone have any ideas on how to find one? And along the same lines, will it make a huge difference if I take lessons on the silver flute with a classical instructor and then practice the irish flute on my own? In other words, should I do one or the other? Or is it okay to do both?

Thanks for any advice you might have.



Lala

Get a whistle and practice Irish music on that while waiting for the Irish flute.

Michael

[bepoq]

I largely agree your post - as I said, Irish music on the boehm flute can be and is done, well - and I think you neatly suggested some of the thought processes and understandings that allow that. I completely agree with you that in the right sort of situation I would also suggest that someone plays Irish music on the silver flute, and I have done in the past (only once I must admit). But my notion is still that given a situation where the choice is there, I would encourage the wooden flute most every time.

On the other hand, Tom is well capable of playing whatever he wants on the silver flute - if I'm recalling our conversations about it correctly, he said he simply doesn't "hear" Irish music on it in his own case. If I can reach him handily, I'll ask him again. I still find it telling, though I have the context of his more general view on music which might colour my understanding. If you don't think it is telling, fair enough, but kindly refrain from telling me what I am allowed to find telling, eh?

[bepoq]

Lala is clearly a very deep thinker - fair play for her consideration and avoidance of knee-jerk reaction.

(thinks- must remember to check the date of beginning posts before jumping in)

sorry all

[Denny]

talasiga does haunt the archives

[Guinness]

Bobble head music? Not Irish - not by a long shot?

That description sounds not good at any rate, cocus. For all that I don' t think that Sara's flute playing on the big silver flute is traditional Irish flute style in this example (as compared to solo trad Irish playing), and for all that Flook is is not my thing by and large, I would argue that the group as a whole is traditional Irish music in one of its newer forms or examples. The Irish music tradition's bounds are not fixed and they are certainly not circumscribed by what you might dance a set to. They never were. It is also not frozen, but changeable as it lives. While I suppose there are bounds, they vary from perspective to perspective and to some extent with time, region, generation. The pure drop mob (and I tend to drift that direction actually) don't like it - the music produced by this sort of pushing of at the edge of the tradition - and they serve the tradition thus by keeping it anchored. The lads that push things make sure that the tradition does not stagnate. I am frequently not mad about their stuff and would rather listen to Packie Duignan and Seamus Horan, but I wouldn't declare them outside the tradition on that basis. Where do you think Finnegan got his music?

Dance a set to Tommy Potts - say, off the Liffey Banks recording. If you were to answer me that you could dance to him if he were playing for dancers, I would agree but answer that the same is true for Finnegan and co.

Traditional - no guitar - bouzouki - piano - banjo - eight keyed flute - concert playing, pub sessions, etc. etc. - how far back do you want to go?

Planxty out, Lunasa definitely out, Danu, Niall Vallely etc. etc. etc.

Are the Pure Drop-istes saving us from a morass of noise and pop fusion or are they stifling creativity and innovation with their regressive notions of ITM? Either way, their opinions (and arrogance) will hardly curtail ITM offshoots, no matter how ghastly or perverted, because consumers crave variety and the recording industry is all too happy to make a buck off of every market segment. On the back of some CDs it says, "File under Celtic/Folk". Now is that a directive from the musician or from the recording label?

[talasiga]

talasiga does haunt the archives

Its not haunting but method (in madness for some).

I started a topic recently on wooden alto flute and I felt that this one it would be a good concurrent to it seeing as it contains the Flook clip with non wooden alto.

think of it as thematic thread clusters.

[jemtheflute]

think of it as thematic thread clusters.

Oh where are the dragons of Pern when we need them? They'd flame those pesky thread clusters in mid air!

[G1]

^ Their riders became addicted to Irish flute, and between visits to the pub and leaning against a tree - they just don't have time to fly anymore!

[claudine]

Thanks for your answer!!

Now I just have to :
1. Find a kind of teacher, or at least a guy who could give me some advices for playing

there will be a workshop in Mollkirch (Alsace/France) in may (pentecoast weekend). I think Eamonn Cotter will be the flute teacher there.

there will also be a short flute workshop in Luxembourg (afternoon of saturday may 3rd).

pm me if interested.

[talasiga]

I think that's more or less what I said with regard to different and new instruments - .

......
I take it, by the way, that you are a traditional Irish musician, Talasiga, and that is the perspective you give your advice on playing traditional Irish music from?

I don't see anywhere in this topic (or in these forums), including my profile, that I have given specific advice on how to play traditional Irish music on flute or made a claim to be an IT musician. I have expressed an opinion about Sara Allens' fluting. I have expressed a general opinion about tradition and innovation. ITM is not the only tradition that contends with issues of innovation, evolution and conservatism for the sake of authenticity.

I appreciate Irish music that touches me and moves me emotionally. I am not autistic about technique but obsessive about effect. Enya's innovations (despite her traditional rearing) does not move me to explore traditional Irish music. Neither does Sheila Chandra's innovative approach. I found Sara Allen inspiring although I don't particularaly go for Flook. As for accepted traditional music the accordion of Tony McMahon makes me want to to learn the Ghosts's tune though I don't generally like that instrument in the hands of many and Davy Spillane's low whsitle solo of a lament also drives me so.

[bepoq]

Are the Pure Drop-istes saving us from a morass of noise and pop fusion or are they stifling creativity and innovation with their regressive notions of ITM? Either way, their opinions (and arrogance) will hardly curtail ITM offshoots, no matter how ghastly or perverted, because consumers crave variety and the recording industry is all too happy to make a buck off of every market segment. On the back of some CDs it says, "File under Celtic/Folk". Now is that a directive from the musician or from the recording label?

I don't agree with your characterization of the pure drop or the binary you set up in your first sentence - "arrogant... stifling" - I mean some are like that obviously - perhaps I am one of them, though I am usually full of admiration for McGoldrick and Finnegan and Keegan's stuff even while maintaining it is not the way I want to play - or regressive - I don't believe they want to regress at all from where they perceive the tradition to really lie - perhaps you perceive them as regressive because you understand the tradition to have moved on from there. It seems to me as someone mentioned earlier, that a tradition has more than one voice and is able to hold several disparate ones contemporaneously - thus the pure drop are by no means regressive. As I said, as far as I am concerned, both pure drop and innovators are valuable to a living tradition.

One might argue that the arrogance lies not in the pure drop, but in those that appropriate the tradition while having limited understanding of it, or those that declare that the tradition has moved on or that they know where it is headed/must head. (Not aimed at this thread or Flook before anyone misunderstands) Tony McMahon's polemic at the Crossroads conference is a marvelous attack on this.

I most definitely do not acknowledge that Irish music is wholly proscribed by the music industry and capitalist power structures.