This thread is getting kind of long and I haven't seen any numbers yet. So, I'll play game by suggesting that if I were a flutemaker that had risen to the level of a Terry McGee, I'd be hoping to earn somewhere around $100,000 to $150,000 a year U.S. My understanding is many great luthiers earn less and certainly less than they could. Luthiery is not a profession that one can expect to easily earn a fortune in, but top work should be rewarded with a salary equal to a good position in government. etc. I once met a top guitar builder who said the key to earning money in his field was to learn not only to build really good guitars-but also to learn to build them FAST. I thought this guy really is the definition of a wise country gentleman.
BTW, I got a custom made 5 keyed blackwood flute with two headjoints from Terry in August (one semicircle and one rounded rectangle). Its the 5088 model and it is simply great. The flute is extremely comfortable and responsive. I wondered if I was being a little nutty in getting the two headjoints, but I've really enjoyed playing and comparing them. I lean toward the semicircle because I think it really brings out the superb overtones, but I also like the rectangle because its a little easier to play. Anyway, there is something in the saying that people can get carried away with worrying about their equipment and I already had a nice flute. But I also think every player reaches a point where they are ready to step up from a good to a really good flute. I think I had reached that point and my 5088 has not disappointed at all. Quite the opposite. Thanks Terry and all the best.
What should a flutemaker earn?
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libraryman
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lixnaw
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Re: What should a flutemaker earn?
Terry, it's easy. Just back the Roos tomorrow, they cover a 14 points handicap and bash the PommiesTerry McGee wrote: Any thoughts?
Terry
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Casey Burns
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Terry McGee
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Heh heh, that got Casey's attention! And I'd guess he's right.
Here's a chart from one of our national newspapers showing what people in various occupations are earning. In Australian dollars of course, so not directly comparable (perhaps someone has a chart in USD?).
The Yellow curve is the average earnings in each industry, and the industries are set out in that order. The blue curve shows you that if you are at the bottom of the business, it doesn't matter all that much which industry you work in! The pink curve shows that in some industries you can earn an awful lot more than in others. Note that the top lawyers earn a lot more than the average in their field. And the pink and blue curves aren't the extremes - they are also average earnings of high flyers and those at the bottom.
The first category (extreme left) shows the average wage in Australia, about $84,000. That currently translates as USD $55,549. Note that everyone from "Property and Real Estate" on towards the right is earning less than that; those to the left are earning more.
Presumably we should allow a similar vertical spread for flute makers. A "top flutemaker" (whatever that is!) should expect to earn substantially more than "yer average flutemaker", while your "bottom end" flute maker should probably expect to be somewhere along that blue line. (Ha, or starve to death, more likely!)
So our graph poses us a few questions.
Where along that list of categories should we place flutemakers?(Astonishing, isn't it, that the newspaper report hasn't slotted us in already!) In the simplest way of looking at it, should a flute maker expect to earn more or less than the average wage?
Once we've placed ourselves, what ratio of earning seems reasonable between bottom and top end makers?
Which then of course begs the question, how would we tell where we should be on that vertical ladder?
I should hasten to assure that this is just an amusing exercise - I'm not planning to toss in flutemaking for a last-minute attempt to become a top executive! Those who have pointed out above the job-satisfaction aspects are spot on - in my many reincarnations, I've never found anything that exercises the mind and satisfies the soul like flutemaking!
Terry
Here's a chart from one of our national newspapers showing what people in various occupations are earning. In Australian dollars of course, so not directly comparable (perhaps someone has a chart in USD?).
The Yellow curve is the average earnings in each industry, and the industries are set out in that order. The blue curve shows you that if you are at the bottom of the business, it doesn't matter all that much which industry you work in! The pink curve shows that in some industries you can earn an awful lot more than in others. Note that the top lawyers earn a lot more than the average in their field. And the pink and blue curves aren't the extremes - they are also average earnings of high flyers and those at the bottom.
The first category (extreme left) shows the average wage in Australia, about $84,000. That currently translates as USD $55,549. Note that everyone from "Property and Real Estate" on towards the right is earning less than that; those to the left are earning more.
Presumably we should allow a similar vertical spread for flute makers. A "top flutemaker" (whatever that is!) should expect to earn substantially more than "yer average flutemaker", while your "bottom end" flute maker should probably expect to be somewhere along that blue line. (Ha, or starve to death, more likely!)
So our graph poses us a few questions.
Where along that list of categories should we place flutemakers?(Astonishing, isn't it, that the newspaper report hasn't slotted us in already!) In the simplest way of looking at it, should a flute maker expect to earn more or less than the average wage?
Once we've placed ourselves, what ratio of earning seems reasonable between bottom and top end makers?
Which then of course begs the question, how would we tell where we should be on that vertical ladder?
I should hasten to assure that this is just an amusing exercise - I'm not planning to toss in flutemaking for a last-minute attempt to become a top executive! Those who have pointed out above the job-satisfaction aspects are spot on - in my many reincarnations, I've never found anything that exercises the mind and satisfies the soul like flutemaking!
Terry
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libraryman
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Two very respected flutemakers seem to suggest my figures were pretty far out of line and I accept that. But maybe I did not express myself all that clearly. I was not guessing how much any one or an average flutemaker earns. I have no way of knowing that. But I do know that there are makers who have very long waiting lists and more than a couple who have seen a flute they just delivered resold for a significantly higher price. These makers could get more for their instruments. I guess there are different reasons they don't--but suspect at least some don't want to seem greedy. For builders in that category, I don't think pricing their product to give an income in the range I suggested was so crazy. Its taken years and a lot of skill for them to get there.
Anyway, if my suggestion was off the mark, it was not meant to offend, but to compliment.
Anyway, if my suggestion was off the mark, it was not meant to offend, but to compliment.
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libraryman
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Two very respected flutemakers seem to suggest my figures were pretty far out of line and I accept that. But maybe I did not express myself all that clearly. I was not guessing how much any one or an average flutemaker earns. I have no way of knowing that. But I do know that there are makers who have very long waiting lists and more than a couple who have seen a flute they just delivered resold for a significantly higher price. These makers could get more for their instruments. I guess there are different reasons they don't--but suspect at least some don't want to seem greedy. For builders in that category, I don't think pricing their product to give an income in the range I suggested was so crazy. Its taken years and a lot of skill for them to get there.
Anyway, if my suggestion was off the mark, it was not meant to offend, but to compliment.
Anyway, if my suggestion was off the mark, it was not meant to offend, but to compliment.
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Terry McGee
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Certainly no disrespect detected here, libraryman, and compliment accepted!
I suspect you're right - part of the problem is that we don't work to maximise our income. Too much time here spent playing around with potential new models, working on improving flutes that nobody is complaining about, developing measurement and design systems, answering non-customer enquiries about old flutes, flute repair methods, etc, researching 19th century instruments and makers etc. All "non-productive", but of course an important part of the "job satisfaction" input.
It would be interesting to know what one could and should earn though!
Terry
I suspect you're right - part of the problem is that we don't work to maximise our income. Too much time here spent playing around with potential new models, working on improving flutes that nobody is complaining about, developing measurement and design systems, answering non-customer enquiries about old flutes, flute repair methods, etc, researching 19th century instruments and makers etc. All "non-productive", but of course an important part of the "job satisfaction" input.
It would be interesting to know what one could and should earn though!
Terry
Well, Mr. McGee, inasmuch as there could be such a thing as a flute market, then perhaps it all comes down to just what such a market could bear.
If you ask too little, then likely you'll get swamped, and if you ask too much, then perhaps your flute making could become as history.
It's all well and good that you could respond to inquiry in regard to antique flutes, sir, but perhaps you could now proceed as based on your own reputation.
McGee flutes, after all, are McGee flutes.
;-)
If you ask too little, then likely you'll get swamped, and if you ask too much, then perhaps your flute making could become as history.
It's all well and good that you could respond to inquiry in regard to antique flutes, sir, but perhaps you could now proceed as based on your own reputation.
McGee flutes, after all, are McGee flutes.
;-)
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Ed Stander
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It's a great game, though - guessing what others make....
I worked as a street performer for many years. My first festival was in Halifax, Nova Scotia, where the crowds were legion. 10,000 people or more a night passed by our circle. The papers calculated that, based on the crowds and the typical donation, we were making 1000$ PER NIGHT. Next day, one of the buskers was asked what he planned to do with his money, and the fellow told the papers that he planned to put the majority into fixing his boat (he planned on retiring there). The next day the papers proclaimed that Buskers Owned Yachts.
(sigh). Don't I wish.
In similar frame, I imagine that the typical flutier makes his keyless flutes in batches of 10 or so, with the average batch taking, say, three weeks from start to finish. Given that he does his work in his basement, and doesn't pay overhead above what he needs to live, we can discount that part. Wood per batch probably comes to 400$ at the top end, equipment wear and tear comes to 300$, so lets call it 1000$ per batch. If the flutes are sold for 1500$ apiece, we have a net profit per batch of 14,000$ per three week period. at 12 batches per year, we end up with 168,000$ / year.
Terry - what are you doing with all that money?
Best - Ed
I worked as a street performer for many years. My first festival was in Halifax, Nova Scotia, where the crowds were legion. 10,000 people or more a night passed by our circle. The papers calculated that, based on the crowds and the typical donation, we were making 1000$ PER NIGHT. Next day, one of the buskers was asked what he planned to do with his money, and the fellow told the papers that he planned to put the majority into fixing his boat (he planned on retiring there). The next day the papers proclaimed that Buskers Owned Yachts.
(sigh). Don't I wish.
In similar frame, I imagine that the typical flutier makes his keyless flutes in batches of 10 or so, with the average batch taking, say, three weeks from start to finish. Given that he does his work in his basement, and doesn't pay overhead above what he needs to live, we can discount that part. Wood per batch probably comes to 400$ at the top end, equipment wear and tear comes to 300$, so lets call it 1000$ per batch. If the flutes are sold for 1500$ apiece, we have a net profit per batch of 14,000$ per three week period. at 12 batches per year, we end up with 168,000$ / year.
Terry - what are you doing with all that money?
Best - Ed
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Berti66
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what crossed my mind is that nowadays there are much more flutemakers than there used to be in those times of nicholson et al.
concurrention also makes it harder to earn more money now than at those times......
that aside, artists, whatever they make, are ALWAYS underpaid.
if we were paid by the hour, no one would be able to afford our products.
berti
concurrention also makes it harder to earn more money now than at those times......
that aside, artists, whatever they make, are ALWAYS underpaid.
if we were paid by the hour, no one would be able to afford our products.
berti
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Terry McGee
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Heh heh. This is going to come as somewhat of a shock. Langwills lists something like 535 makers in London. While that covers from the earliest times to late 20th century, a glance illustrates that most of them were from the first half 19th century! And this is just London, not England, not the Continent, not the US.Berti66 wrote:what crossed my mind is that nowadays there are much more flutemakers than there used to be in those times of nicholson et al.
berti
Now this was the time where reputedly "one gentleman in ten played the flute" (no women did - that had to wait until the end of the century), so the market was bigger. Though the population of London was much smaller than we know today:
1801 --- 958,863
1821 --- 1,378,947
1841 --- 1,948,417
1861 --- 2,803,989
1881 --- 3,815,544 (or Greater London 4,776,661)
1891 --- 4,211,056 (or Greater London 5,633,332)
1899 --- 4,211,056 (or Greater London 6,528,434)
1939 --- 8,615,245 (Greater London population's peak)
...
2003 --- 7,387,900 (Greater London)
So there are far fewer makers these days by comparison, but I guess our output must be higher. (Not mine, he said ruefully.)
But certainly, the number of modern makers is growing quickly. From what we can gather, in the 1970's there were very few of us. Around the turn of the millenium, I'd guess we were aware of 20 or so. Jem could probably give us a pretty good reckoning of how many there are now, but I'd guess we're getting on towards 100. There are reportedly 1000 members of the flutemakers email list. If it goes on like this, soon one in ten gentlepersons will be a flutemaker!
Terry
REALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I had NO idea, wow......... *faints*-
Terry McGee
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Beats me, Ed. Though perhpas you've given me the clue. Reviewing my approach:Ed Stander wrote: In similar frame, I imagine that the typical flutier makes his keyless flutes in batches of 10 or so, with the average batch taking, say, three weeks from start to finish. Given that he does his work in his basement, and doesn't pay overhead above what he needs to live, we can discount that part. Wood per batch probably comes to 400$ at the top end, equipment wear and tear comes to 300$, so lets call it 1000$ per batch. If the flutes are sold for 1500$ apiece, we have a net profit per batch of 14,000$ per three week period. at 12 batches per year, we end up with 168,000$ / year.
Terry - what are you doing with all that money?
Best - Ed
Unfortunately the typical McGee makes his keyless flutes in batches of 1 or so, with the average batch taking, say, three months from start to finish. Given that he does his work in his basement, and doesn't pay overhead above what he needs to live, we can discount that part, other than the fact he's still paying off the new house, and with it the workshop. Wood per batch (of 1) probably comes to 40$ at the top end, equipment wear and tear comes to 30$, so lets call it 100$ per batch. (Hey,what about all that silver!) If the flutes are sold for 1255$ apiece, we have a net profit per batch of maybe 1,000$ per three month period. at 4 batches per year, we end up with 4,000$ / year.
Nah, it's not that grim. While those flutes are lying around stabilising between operations, I can of course get on with other things. But even so, I don't achieve anything like the throughput in your scenario. Mea culpa, I suspect.
Terry