'Nicholson Improved' on Ebay

[Jon C.]

What makes you think that embouchure hole was cast?

Actually, I didn't assume it was cast (didn't know either way). Hasty post on my part. I was trying to point out that if a maker wanted to churn out very similarly performing and repeatable embouchure replicas, even of his own work, or make a modular headjoint, this might be a way of doing it. Cutting may very well be more practical than casting, I dunno, but as you queried, "have you worked out replicating the embouchure cut...?"

I have molded Wyldes emb hole, using blu tac, was a able to to a decent replication. It comes down to just futsing with it until you get it right. The Nickolson's emb. hole a pretty big hole.

[kenr]

Hmm, It didn't sell for £999, so now it's on sale again but this time at £1,375.

Maybe the seller is hoping somebody will make an offer around £1,000?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Antique-Nicholson ... dZViewItem

Ken

[Jon C.]

Hmm, It didn't sell for £999, so now it's on sale again but this time at £1,375.

Maybe the seller is hoping somebody will make an offer around £1,000?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Antique-Nicholson ... dZViewItem

Ken

No, it is probably reverse psychology, charge more, and they will think it is worth more...

[jemtheflute]

Maybe reverse psyching or some such, but (by Occam's Razor) I favour a simpler hypothesis: 1st time it was a normal auction with a starting price of £999 which failed to attract any bids, let alone reach any reserve (which obviously we don't know). This time the vendor has changed strategy, has set up a Buy It Now sale with a price that is what he hopes to achieve/believes the true value is, but as he wants to actually make a sale he's open to offers, but we don't know how much less he'd contemplate accepting - my guess would be not much!

So, I'd say it is a change of sales tactics, not reverse psych.

He might have done better tactically to do a new ordinary auction with a much lower starting price but still a reserve in the area he thinks it should reach, since apparently his £999 last time scared off any interest and £1375 isn't likely to be any less scary!

[Gabriel]

A question to our restorers: is that flute in it's current state worth that price?

[Tootler]

A question to our restorers: is that flute in it's current state worth that price?

Not a restorer, but I have been keeping an eye on wooden flutes in eBay recently with a view to possibly buying one in the future.

I would be looking for an instrument that I could play and any price I might be prepared to pay would take into account any restoration that might need to be done and this particular flute is badly cracked in the head joint. To me that seriously reduces the value. Why should I pay over £1000 for a damaged flute when I could get a new one from a reputable maker for around the same price or even somewhat less? especially when the cost of restoration is taken into account.

As an analogy, my wife is fond of watching some of the auction programmes that are found on daytime TV in the UK and often ceramics from quality factories come up for sale. The presenters often discuss the value of these ceramics and if they are damaged they seem to suggest reductions in auction values of anywhere between 50 and 90% compared with examples of the same or similar items in pristine condition.

Of course I realise there are people for whom the "prestige" of owning an antique instrument is more important than having a playable one, but even they are not going to be interested instruments as damaged as this one is, they want them at least superficially in pristine condition.

No I think the flute is grossly overpriced even given the apparent provenance.

Geoff

[jemtheflute]

Mmmm, where's that worm-can?

Very hard to say really, and I'm not sufficiently expert in current market values of "name" antique flutes. This is my take on it, having read the whole of the vendor's listing blurb.

So far as one can see from the pictures and written description, the flute is all there and generally intact I think the vendor's estimate of c£200 for a repair and overhaul to full playing condition is probably in the right ball-park. The head and barrel cracks are not a major problem to fix and once done properly, the flute should be in near original condition allowing for the repairs.

Some of Tootler's points, though sensibly to be considered, are not directly applicable in the same way to a rather different market than the one he draws comparison to, and I disagree that the over-pricing is quite that "gross".

I do not think the market in antique flutes places the same devaluation on damage/repaired damage that the ceramics and glass field does. For starters, those are materials that are very fragile and prone to damage, so the survival of pristine examples is at a greater premium. Even if ceramics etc. are functional items, their being in working condition is a less important aspect of their value than it is in a musical instrument. They are collected as objects solely. A fine but damaged old instrument that has been restored to full playing condition and is cosmetically as good as may be will be worth less than an equivalent one that has never been damaged, but not by so huge a proportion as mentioned above, maybe c15%. In any case, the playing qualities over-ride all: a repaired antique that is a better player than an undamaged one of otherwise similar provenance may even be worth more than the "perfect" example. A damaged instrument that has not been repaired should be worth significantly less as the success of potential restoration and how it will play thereafter are unknowns and risks to the purchaser.

If I had the money to move in that price range, I would first research recent past sales of similar flutes (further than the present vendor appears to have done). Then, to establish what I would think to be a reasonable price to pay for the present flute, from the price range my researches had revealed for good examples of similar flutes in playing condition I would first discount the likely repair price, say £250 to err on the high side, and then at least a similar amount to allow for the risks involved, especially since with an eBay auction there is no chance to try the flute out in any way and the vendor is admittedly not knowledgeable about flutes.

I'd say that paying about 2/3rds of the ball-park price (whatever that is) for a good Prowse Nicholson in top playing fettle would be reasonable in the present case, but not more.

There is an element of the collector effect in the market in antique flutes, but these days the "to play" element is probably stronger. That balance has swung in the last 30 or so years. Makers names do have cachet, but the bottom line is playing quality and playability (save in cases of extreme rarity/special features, where the collector aspect retakes dominance and inflates prices of even imperfect examples), so a Nicholson model may be less in demand than, say, a Pratten.

There are not many modern makers, and certainly not the top names, offering 8-key flutes at under £1400, though. If this one proves a good player at modern pitch once restored, I reckon paying say £1000 purchase plus £250 repair would be a pretty decent deal in terms of a playing outcome. If I had the cash, I'd certainly think of paying up to c£800 for it to buy for my own use once repaired, though not as a repairer/dealer looking to turn a profit. But I fear the vendor's comparison to a flute worth £2000 is somewhat over optimistic. That said, one might well get a perfectly good later C19th 8-key London made flute by a lesser known name in better condition and a better player for modern use at a somewhat lower price. The only way to find out though is to put your toes in the water.

[Tootler]

Maybe I over egged it a little and I am certainly not in a position to pay that kind of money for a flute, neither does my playing ability justify it.

It just struck me that it seemed a somewhat excessive price to ask for a flute that had major damage to the head joint, certainly much worse damage than some of the much cheaper flutes I have seen on eBay. I accept that if Jem says £800 is a reasonable maximum then he has the knowledge and experience that I do not, so I would accept that as a reasonable figure. It is still some £500 less than the seller is asking and that is still serious money.

Geoff

[plamas]

Just a few observations. I was watching that flute as well, and was interested to see it relisted in that manner.
IMHO ( and remember I do this for a living) the restoration would cost considerably more than £200, and more importantly, this flute will not be a feasible instrument for playing at modern pitch, or perhaps at any pitch, given the reputation that Nicholson Improveds have for awful internal tuning.
Nice collectors flute, but not at that price.
All the Best
Hammy