Non-sticky: Not Posting Clips

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johnkerr
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Re: Non-sticky: Not Posting Clips

Post by johnkerr »

Geez, you shut down C&F on a Friday afternoon, go home for the weekend and come back on Monday morning only to find that Rob has started a controversial discussion that's gone on for four pages and has already digressed into stupid martial arts blathering. Rob, could you not just go out and play some tunes over the weekend like a normal flute player would?

But to recap, Rob started this out by saying
My own opinion on this subject is already out there, but to recap: I think anyone who gives advice, posts flute reviews, or criticizes the playing or the opinions of others here should absolutely post a clip.
My personal opinion is that Rob is not far off the mark with this. The only change I would make would be to add at the end if they want or expect to have their opinion taken seriously by any readers here. The whole issue is one of credibility, and the credibility of any C&F poster is solely determined on a one-by-one basis by everyone who reads his or her post. As a reader, I have to decide whether or not to put any stock in what someone is telling me here, and I can only make that decision based on what I know about the person making the comment. Sometimes I will have met that person in real life, and I will know right away even if it's only their first comment here whether or not I can trust what they are saying. Other times, that person may have a body of written work in the form of many prior postings here that I can use as a benchmark in evaluating their current comment. Or sometimes a poster will cite their resume or other relevant facts in their post before offering up an opinion, and I can use what they tell me about who they are to help me decide if I should believe what they say. In the absence of any of that, though, I basically have to take anything said on this forum with a grain of salt.

This system works well for evaluating the credibility of any poster's comments here. But in the case of comments about flutes or flute playing, there is another way that a poster can establish credibility with me, the reader, and that is by posting a clip of their playing. This tells me immediately whether or not the poster can actually play the instrument they are discussing. Even if the quality of the recording is poor, a lot can be learned from it - the equivalent of many, many prior comments made by that person, actually. So the clip is a great way for the poster to establish his or her level of credibility with the reader, at least on the topic of flutes and flute playing. In the Pub or the PROCTology forum or even the ITM forum, it will of course be less relevant and carry little or even no weight.

Of course no one should be forced or pressured to submit a clip to establish their credibility on the topic of flutes and flute playing. As I said already, credibility can be built up over time as the poster makes more and more comments allowing readers to make a gradual determination of the level of their knowledge and expertise on the instrument. And if a particular poster decides to go that route towards establishing their credibility here, that's their choice and it should be respected and not challenged. But if there is a poster or posters here who have made a lot of posts over an extended period of time, offered up a lot of opinions, and yet for whatever reason still feel that readers are questioning their credibility, then they might want to consider posting a clip as a way of establishing more credibility and having their opinions, playing tips and reviews taken more seriously by more readers here. But it should be entirely their choice. If they feel their opinions are not being taken seriously by readers who they would like to have take their opinions seriously, and they are happy with that situation and decide not to post a clip, there's nothing wrong with that. Their opinions, playing tips and flute reviews will continue to be ignored by those who have been ignoring them all along.

However, everyone should know that posting a clip here is not technically difficult at all. Anyone, no matter how computer-phobic they may claim to be, who owns a computer, can get on the Internet and make hundreds or thousands of posts to C&F has all the technical know-how they need to post a clip. Any C&Fer who already has posted one can tell them how to do it if asked. There is of course the issue of recording equipment, and there is a cost involved with that. But again, the computer is the biggest expense item on the list, and presumably if they are on C&F they already have that. Mp3 recorders that include a built-in mic and are capable of transferring sound files directly to a computer (the Edirol is a good example of one) can be had for $300-$400. Or a good mic can be bought for less than $100 and a program like GarageBand can be bought for a couple hundred bucks allowing recordings to be made directly to the computer. While this may seem like a lot of money, and indeed to many folks it is, anyone who finds themself owning several flutes might well consider selling one of them and investing in recording capability instead - whether they plan to post a clip here or not. Every player, even the best, needs feedback on their playing if they want to improve. As the Catholics say, even the Pope goes to confession. If you're not in a situation where you have a teacher or mentor to listen to your playing and offer a critique, the next best way to get feedback on your playing is to record yourself and listen to what you really sound like. Even if you never share those recordings with others, you will learn enough from them to justify the money you spent on recording equipment and software. So sell an Olwell bamboo or a Delrin flute and buy a recorder instead. Your flute-playing credibility with at least one person (yourself) will instantly improve.
Last edited by johnkerr on Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rob Sharer
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Post by Rob Sharer »

Jayhawk wrote:Rob - I didn't twist your words at all...just used them to point out that the recurring theme was you must post clips.
This is exactly what I object to....I don't want my words used to point out anything. When you redact them, then use bits to make false conclusions about what I'm trying to say, that's twisting. Read the whole thing carefully, then use your own words to disagree if you like. Quote if you must, but don't tack a different conclusion on the end, even one which is materially similar but has a different tone or strength

Rama mentioned "negative spin," and I could hardly think of a better way to describe what has happened in this thread. Reading the whole thing is like watching a game of Chinese Whispers unfold. It started out with one person, me, putting forth an idea about posting clips under certain circumstances. A couple of posts down, it became, "Hey, they want everyone to post clips now!" Further on down, it was, "Hey, Sharer says everyone should be required to post clips or their opinions are meaningless!" A nice diversion was privided by a misquote, to wit, "Sharer says 'put up or shut up.'" Nice job, Ronbo. Where does it end, with a crowd on my front porch, wielding pine torches and pitchforks?

As I said before, some folks agree with what I wrote, and some don't. I expected as much, and the fact that not everyone does agree is hardly cause for alarm. What I do find alarming is the process some folks have chosen to try to poke holes in my arguments. I think I made a careful, considered proposal, which got mischaracterized over and over again until it was unrecognizable. Fortunately, there are a couple of folks who have tried to return the focus to what I actually DID say, including John Kerr just above, so I don't think there's a need to restate.

Still, with all of the reminders throughout the thread, why have certain people failed to correctly identify the self-imposed boundaries of my original proposal? It's possible that some folks just don't read very carefully before flying off the handle. Personally, I think it's willlful - arguing in bad faith. You can do better than that! Cheers,

Rob
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Post by Jayhawk »

Rob - I have not, in either of my posts, tried to argue in bad faith or to twist your words. If you feel I have, that was never my intention. I used the quote function because I did not want to twist your words - I thought they spoke pretty clearly on their own.

Even though I have posted several clips so I know this thread originally was not directed at me, I do not see any way your original post could be seen as anything other than a challenge to board members who have not posted a clip.

Perhaps I should have just done this and left it at that:
Dale wrote:I agree with much of this, but at the same time this whole post a clip to prove your worth thing bothers me.

It does carry with it a sort of message like: "You can't post reviews/opinions/advice on the forums without being willing--not just too play an instrument well--but accumulate the hardware necessary to create clips, learn how to use them, learn how to post them, take the time to do so, etc. etc." I don't think it's fair. People are free to conclude on their own that they'll more readily take the advice of someone who they've heard play than someone they haven't. It's really not that difficult. But, to go further and say, you've not posted clips so why should anyone listen to you? really is unfair.
Ditto.

Eric
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Rob Sharer
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Post by Rob Sharer »

Jayhawk wrote: I do not see any way your original post could be seen as anything other than a challenge to board members who have not posted a clip.
You're still doing it! My original post has much more to it than that. You've once again oversimplified my stance. If you really think my words speak for themselves, why do you continually feel the need to (mis) translate my intentions for the rest of the group? I get your point - you don't agree with me. Fine. Just quit muddying the waters!

Meanwhile, Dale is not a human trump-card.

Rob
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Post by fearfaoin »

I'm not going to read this whole thread, because... damn.
But, I'd like to share an observation about a situation I'm going through with
my singing group right now. Among musicians there is a sort of "street cred"
linked to musical ability. The better a musician you are, the better your "cred".
This seems to be mostly subconsious on the part of the group, but it's there.
This manifests thusly: If a person with low musical ability has ideas about
a performance that have nothing to do with the music, those ideas won't get
listened to, even if they are often good ideas. Non-musicians have great ideas,
but among better musicians, these often get ignored.

What if MTGuru were a bad player? Would that make his O-Ring Susato fix
any less brilliant? Of course not. That's what I worry about with clip posting,
though. No one would mean for that to happen, but it's possible that it would.
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Post by Whistlin'Dixie »

...........
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Post by cocusflute »

All I ask is that the forum not be boring. Having people post clips of their playing makes this a much more interesting place to be.
More like a session and less like a graduate seminar.
The struggle in Palestine is an American war, waged from Israel, America's most heavily armed foreign base and client state. We don't think of the war in such terms. Its assigned role has been clear: the destruction of Arab culture and nationalism.
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Post by Rob Sharer »

Hear, hear.

Rob
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Post by Jayhawk »

Rob - it's obvious we disagree, but I thought I was allowed to state an opinion on this issue. Isn't that why you started this thread - to open a discourse on this issue?

If I'm overly simplifying your stance, it's because that is how I read your post. We both might read Solzhenitsyn's "Cancer Ward" and have different interpretations of what the author was truly trying to say, but that does not mean we're trying to twist the words or message of the author.

As for Dale being a human trump card - that is your interpretation of my actions - which you are allowed to have. However, I in no way meant to use Dale as a human trump card. I simply quoted Dale because his thoughts summed up nicely how I felt, did not use quotes from your post which you apparently dislike, and because you seem to find whatever I write inflammatory which has never been my intent.

Eric
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Post by Jayhawk »

Wow, replies came fast...I absolutely agree with Rob's and Cocus' most recent posts. Like I've said from the start - I'm not against posting clips at all, and I really enjoy them.

Eric
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Post by chas »

cocusflute wrote:All I ask is that the forum not be boring. Having people post clips of their playing makes this a much more interesting place to be.
More like a session and less like a graduate seminar.
You have managed to say concisely what took me a few paragraphs to try to say.
Charlie
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Post by cocusflute »

Charlie
Toddlers laugh about 400 times a day, adults about 15. What happens to us?
What happens? What do you think happens? We have to go to work, that's what happens. If you're not careful, this is the sequence: birth-school-work-death.
But take heart. I am back up to 243 times a day and there's more every day.
The struggle in Palestine is an American war, waged from Israel, America's most heavily armed foreign base and client state. We don't think of the war in such terms. Its assigned role has been clear: the destruction of Arab culture and nationalism.
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Post by johnkerr »

Charlie
Toddlers laugh about 400 times a day, adults about 15. What happens to us?
We lose the ability to laugh at ourselves. That takes away hundreds of laugh opportunities every single day.

Remember, if you can't laugh at yourself why should anyone else bother laughing at you? (Or <i>with</i> you, not at you. Like anybody's telling the truth when they say that...)
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Post by rama »

1-2 chuckles a day is about all i can handle. anymore ruins my much loved disposition.
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Post by ImNotIrish »

John,

just listened to your reel clips. Lovely playing. Nice and solid, good steady rhythm. Really enjoyed the pulse throughout! What flute are you playing?

Arbo

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