Are classical flute lessons helpful for learning irish flute

claudine · Post by **claudine** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 5:45 am

I had been struggling to learn irish flute on my own for a few months now. But I constantly have problems with embouchure control: sometimes it works, sometimes it won't. When I think there is a little progress in tone quality, a few days later the tone is worse again.
There is no way to find an irish flute teacher in my area, but it would be easy to find classical flute lessons. Do you think, these lessons could be useful for my embouchure problem?
The trouble is, I really don't want to play classical flute (I'm still a brass-player in my heart). I'm just trying to find help for learning irish flute.

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 6:55 am

I would say classical flute training will help on the embouchure and on tone control, but will be next to useless as far as learning or interpreting Irish tunes, or Irish ornamentation.

Another thing it'll help greatly with is accuracy and speed in fingering, as well as range: classical flute music covers a 3 + octave range.

I'd say take what good you can from what lessons you can get, but know that there will be a day you leave because your teacher wants you to go one way and your path lies in another direction.

Best wishes to you,

--James
http://www.flutesite.com

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 8:42 am

Claudine...assuming you are new to the flute, wooden or metal, here's some things that can either ruin the embouchure or discourage new students: alternately playing brass or reed instruments..like clairinet or trumpet, holding the flute at the wrong angle to the mouth(vertical or horizontal), air leaking around finger holes, cracks anywhere in the wood(some can be imperceptible), leaking joints, leaking pads, or simply being new to the flute while developing embouchure and air stream. Also, eating potato chips or other lip/mouth swelling foods(hot sauce), not playing enough, chapped lips, too much smooching(ha ha) can all befuddle the new student. The cause isn't always what it seems to be. I'm sure the experts can think of more.

rodger · Post by **rodger** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 3:01 pm

Claudine,
I'm in a similar situation, and recently decided to take classical flute lessons starting next month. After struggling with the same embouchure and tone problems you mentioned, and having trouble finding an Irish-flute teacher in my area, I made that decision because I want a good foundation in basic flute technique so I can play a variety of music and possibly teach others myself someday. But Irish flute is my first love, and I'm torn just like you. I'm not entirely sure yet how my prospective teacher feels about Irish music, but I do know it can be played well on the silver flute because I saw Joannie Madden do it. (If you get a chance to see her play, by all means do so!) I also bought the Mel Bay Irish Flute book, which specifically deals with playing Irish music on the silver flute, but haven't gotten far into it yet, so I can't really comment.
From my limited experience, I think peeplj may be right in saying that while classical training will be useful in some ways, it will be of little use in others, and eventually a day will come when the two paths will diverge. But I'm already kind of schizoid anyway, so no problem! When that day arrives, I intend to add a good Irish keyless flute to my collection and continue to do both. Best of luck on whatever you decide. I'd be interested to hear how things turn out.

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 3:28 pm

The Mel Bay book is written and suited for classical flutists "dabbling" in the Irish style on the silver Boehm-system orchestral flute.

Not that it's a bad book, but the tune settings aren't close to "session standard," and while lots of the tunes are fun--I love the setting of "The Drunken Sailor" hornpipe (the Tommy Peoples hornpipe, not the Popeye song)--many are in keys that would require a fully keyed flute and a very advanced player. (Good luck in playing a reel in D-flat major on a keyless flute!)

A much better book is the L.E. McCullough whistle tutor. Also the Fintan Valelley book "Timber: the flute tutor" is well worth getting.

Good luck and best wishes,

--James
http://www.flutesite.com

Aodhan · Post by **Aodhan** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 4:31 pm

There is no way to find an irish flute teacher in my area, but it would be easy to find classical flute lessons. Do you think, these lessons could be useful for my embouchure problem?
The trouble is, I really don't want to play classical flute (I'm still a brass-player in my heart). I'm just trying to find help for learning irish flute.

Claudine-

Where do you live? If it is a major type city, and you have Irish Dance schools there, some of the students may either take flute or know of teachers for it, that have an Irish slant. (That's how I found my teacher)

Also, if there is a seisun around you, show up and ask around there, they may know as well.

Aodhan

Gak...just noticed you are in Luxembourg...not sure what there might be there for that. In my hasty ethnocentricity, I assumed you were in the US. Oops! Sorry!

[ This Message was edited by: Aodhan on 2002-07-25 18:32 ]

claudine · Post by **claudine** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 1:55 am

Dear friends, thanks for your advice.

James: I read the embouchure-related text on your website, and it says that irish flute requires a different embouchure than classical flute. So now - what shall I do? As I have been "classically trained" before, I don't bother too much about style and articulation, I know they are completely different.

Lorenzo: no smooching around here, no no!

It's a keyless delrin flute, so no cracks, no leaking pads either. No potatoe chips, no hot sauces. But I'll try to control the lip position in a mirror. I do have to play cornet - but what is a clarinet? Are you talking about those wooden things that we use to start the barbecue-fire?

Rodger: your situation is probably a bit different from mine, as you seem to like the silver flute. So you would accept making it your main instrument. I just want to play the wooden flute (going to have a Hamilton soon), I love its raw sound, but don't want the softer silver flute style. I want to play irish music on a wooden flute, nothing else.

Aodhan: no, it's rather a minor type city. I have already checked the irish session scene (there's not much of it) and couldn't find help for my specific problem. We have a lot of very inexpensive public music schools here, but I couldn't find an irish flute teacher.

Nevertheless, thanks for any ideas, they will certainly be helpful for making a decision.
have a nice day
- claudine -

Eldarion · Post by **Eldarion** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 2:14 am

Hi Claudine, I was in your position a month or so back and I can empathise with you. It can be very frustrating and discouraging to find yourself sounding better (tonewise) one day and totally disgusting on the next day. Skip a day of practice, and the whole flute tone just collapses. Sometimes I felt that I would never improve.

However one day, I somehow managed to hit with a constant, "acceptable for beginners" tone (I suspect via trial and error of the months before). I took careful note of how my embouchure felt then and consciously imitated that feeling the next day. I was totally estatic to realise that I sounded as good as the day before. Since then, I am glad to say that there have been no really "bad tone days" like in the past. Right now I'm happily fine tuning my tone and working on other aspects of flute playing.

So thats what happened to me so far. I did consider taking some classical flute classes since I had no Irish flute teachers in my area, but now I've put aside that idea. Instead, I got myself some beginner flute Scoiltrad lessons. I also suspected that a classical flute teacher may have a different idea of what a good tone is. (like the classical German, Vienese tone, etc, which is different from the big reedy Irish tone).

Please don't take this as my advice to if you should take classical flute lessons or not though. This is just what happened to me. Do take classical flute lessons if you feel you need to - I'm sure they are not without their benefits. And keep practising!

It also helps to communicate to people who play the flute and know what you are aiming for. Mike Spicer (who is a flute board lurker) showed me how to make a reedy sound (blowing with greater air speed, on the very limit of the note just before it breaks to the next octave) and that helped me quite a bit.

[ This Message was edited by: Eldarion on 2002-07-26 04:16 ]

ChrisB · Post by **ChrisB** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 3:36 am

Claudine,

I had similar problems, so I asked a classical flute teacher, who happens to live across the street, to show me how to play the flute. 
First thing he said: "You are holding the flute to the wrong side" (I hold the flute towards the left, right hand on top)

But nevertheless he had some useful insights:
<ul>
<li>correct embouchure and how to find it</li>
<li>some interesting trainig exercises</li>
<li>practising in front of a mirror</li>
<li>he played my flute, so I got an idea of what sound my flute is capable of</li>
</ul>
I'm planning to take some more lessons especially regarding embouchure (can't have checked it enough) and intonation and maybe about playing. 
Christian

_________________
The only talent I believe in is the ability to persevere in one's studies.
<div align=right>Miyagawa-sensei</div>

[ This Message was edited by: ChrisB on 2002-07-26 05:38 ]

claudine · Post by **claudine** » Thu Aug 01, 2002 1:37 am

On 2002-07-26 04:14, Eldarion wrote:
Skip a day of practice, and the whole flute tone just collapses.
...
I took careful note of how my embouchure felt then and consciously imitated that feeling the next day.

Eldarion, I guess that was my problem. At that moment, I hadn't touched the flute for about 1 week. As my lips are strong from cornet playing, they didn't actually feel tired. They just didn't work like I expected them to do. So, don't forget daily practice - sounds familiar

About the embouchure: I have the impression that I must try to stretch my upper lip (in vertical direction), to make it "longer". Brass players blow straight forward, but for the flute the air must be directed downwards. Could this be correct?
I still haven't decided whether I should take those classical lessons or not.

ChrisB: would you describe a few of the exercices that this flute-teacher has showed you?

- claudine -

hmartley · Post by **hmartley** » Fri Aug 02, 2002 5:54 am

Hi. Yes, do take the lessons! You will get invaluable info about flute embrouchre, breath control, and tone production. Don't worry about the differences between classical and trad Irish embrouchures at this early stage. The goal should be to produce a consistent good sound and learn to get around the instrument. You can refine your sound later, after you have the basics down. A few lessons with any good flute teacher will help your understanding of tone production GREATLY. It will NOT pollute you for Irish music forever. Good luck!

Heather

NancyF · Post by **NancyF** » Wed Aug 07, 2002 5:46 am

Deleted post based on misunderstanding

[ This Message was edited by: NancyF on 2002-09-02 15:52 ]

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Wed Aug 07, 2002 7:41 am

...another interesting insight (wooden vs. metal flute embouchure). Years ago my girlfriend, who was an excellent metal flute player, picked up one of my cheaper wooden flutes, a Meyer w/ivory head, and tried playing it and making it sound like I did. She was both startled and embarrased. She could get very little sound during the first week, and had quite a struggle. But, once she found the right sound, she never lost it, and became a good wooden flute player...and was very reluctant to give it back to me!! The average wooden flute, for most people, will be somewhat different and perhaps harder than the easier tone produced on a good metal flute. A poor wooden flute will never cease to be a struggle. An excellent wooden flute is just a breeze for most flute players. The high-end newer wooden flutes, with bigger embouchure hole and finger holes, may be a challenge to even a good wooden flute player...hence the wide price ranges in the wooden category. There are no across-the-board rules...sometimes it just depends on who, and that magical combination of natural equipment and desire.

Lorenzo

claudine · Post by **claudine** » Wed Aug 07, 2002 1:52 pm

On 2002-08-07 07:46, NancyF wrote:
Claudine, I don't know what a clarinet is called in Luxembourgh, but the other readers probably thought you were kidding about not knowing what one is.

Hi Nancy, thanks for caring. It's called clarinet over here, too (clarinette, Klarinette ...).But I was actually joking. Woodwind-bashing is the favourite sport of brass-players. Clarinet is for us what the bodhran is for many Ir-Trad-musicians.
And I made a decision and will try classical flute lessons for at least one year. Thanks for your advice, everyone.
- claudine -

Flyingcursor · Post by **Flyingcursor** » Thu Aug 08, 2002 7:09 am

Claudine,
Even here our high school brass players bash the clarinet players. My daughter relates several jokes they have regarding the clarinet.

One thing I have learned about music is,
you can never learn too much. AND most important of all, music is and should be FUN.

If you find you are becoming stressed over whether you "should" do this or "should" do that then listen to some of the great musicians who didn't care about what "should" be done.
I'm referring to people who have taken an instrument that has been catagorized as either, classical, jazz, bluegrass etc and some enterprising musician has turned it upside down. I've heard it with banjo, mountain dulcimer, flute, bassoon (jazz bassoon WOW), autoharp and many more.

If you think you will benefit from the classical studies, then give it a try. There's no rule that says you can't do both Irish Trad and classical.