on relaxation, grips, and knuckles

[monkey587]

First of all, I'm going to mention that I'm not interested in debating the merits of the two common grips.

I've been playing a 3-piece ergo Tipple flute for about 6 weeks now. I was biased against standard grip because it appeared to be very awkward, and it goes against most of the principals I teach on guitar. After some experimentation, I found rotations for the joints on the tipple where I could do a very comfortable piper's grip for long periods of time. I never feel strain in my thumbs.

Yesterday, I received Emrys's beautiful padouk sweetheart flute, which has inline holes. Piper's grip didn't immediately work for me because I am not used to the inline holes yet, so I decided to try standard grip our of curiosity, as described in Larsen's book. I noticed an increase in precision (which I take with a grain of salt), but also much more tension just from having my left hand cocked back like that. In fact, I played for about a total of 90 minutes last night, and my left hand hurts today, so obviously I did something wrong.

The thing is, I guess I found that I could relax to a degree when just holding the flute in that position, but tension arose out of moving my fingers. Now, in classical guitar (pepe romero/scott tennant schools of thought), we hinge our fingers on both hands at the big knuckle, where the fingers meet the hand, so this is what I naturally do. However, I am questioning this for the flute. In standard hold, finger T1 is already pulled back a bit at that knuckle, which is a source of strain, but to hinge at that joint to lift it off the hole, it has to pull back even more. This is, essentially, moving the finger outside of its natural range of motion... So how is it that people relax while playing this way? Or am I missing something?

[Jayhawk]

This would be much easier to discuss in person with each of us holding our flutes...

Your left hand shouldn't be cocked back - your wrists should be essentially straight up. That might alleviate your RH top finger issue, too, since to lift RH1 up it shouldn't move outside your natural ROM for that joint.

Overall, I think it's simply practice that leads to relaxation. I've always found the standard grip to be much more comfortable than piper's grip - I get hand cramps trying piper's grip. I do think standard grip is more precise with regard to ornamentation. I think for folks new to standard grip they feel like the flute is going to get away from them when playing quickly, so they tense up and give the flute the grip of death with whatever anchor points they can.

Eric

[monkey587]

This would be much easier to discuss in person with each of us holding our flutes...

Your left hand shouldn't be cocked back - your wrists should be essentially straight up.

I agree, although in my admittedly short period of time trying, I was unable to achieve that. Also, it seems like every photo of every flute player I've seen shows their wrist at some kind of an angle, but of course, a photo is a 2-dimensional representation and doesn't necessarily give all the information necessary to understand a 3-dimensional issue such as we're discussing.

That might alleviate your RH top finger issue, too, since to lift RH1 up it shouldn't move outside your natural ROM for that joint.

I wasn't referring to right hand at all. I don't have any problems with the right hand.

Overall, I think it's simply practice that leads to relaxation.

Practicing the wrong way, though, is unlikely to help. In fact, I can personally attest to the fact that it hurts

I've always found the standard grip to be much more comfortable than piper's grip - I get hand cramps trying piper's grip. I do think standard grip is more precise with regard to ornamentation. I think for folks new to standard grip they feel like the flute is going to get away from them when playing quickly, so they tense up and give the flute the grip of death with whatever anchor points they can.

Eric

I feel that way with either grip. As I said, I'm not really interested in arguing the merits of grips, and I've already read threads here where that was done to death. I just want to understand what people are doing to make, well really either grip work for them, as I would like to learn to do both correctly before deciding which I prefer.

The only thing I refuse to learn is the flute resting on the shoulder grip!

[Jayhawk]

I meant LH1 not RH1! Sorry about that - I'm still under the influence of residual flu symptoms...and I wasn't trying to convert you to any grip - just stating that for me piper's grip seems impossible.

I'll post more tonight when I can actually hold my flute and see what points of contact I anchor with - I probably have a modified standard grip, but it works for me.

You're making a pretty difficult jump from a flute you could rotate the pieces on more easily to an inline pratten one piece type of body. I went from a Dixon 3 piece to a Seery and it took some time to get used to not being able to offset the RH and LH sections.

How do you like the Sweetheart? I love mine.

Eric

[monkey587]

You're making a pretty difficult jump from a flute you could rotate the pieces on more easily to an inline pratten one piece type of body. I went from a Dixon 3 piece to a Seery and it took some time to get used to not being able to offset the RH and LH sections.

How do you like the Sweetheart? I love mine.

Eric

I like both flutes a lot, and intend to keep playing both. Doug's is loud and powerful and very comfortable to play. I could see it being a better session flute when I get to that point. The Sweetheart seems quieter but more focused, less breathy and, well, sweeter. Its tone is like velvet, and I played it for a while in my fiddler's (acoustically great) studio and fell in love with it.

The fingerings are quite different for each, but that doesn't seem to cause me much trouble.

[bang]

one key to relaxation is C#. i have sometimes found myself unconsciously gripping w/ the LH fingers to keep the flute stable. practicing transitions from the other notes to the "all fingers up" note has helped.

as for how the left hand fingers move using standard grip, the videos at the Custy's music web site are quite revealing. John Wynne, Kevin Crawford, Catherine McEvoy, Conor Byrne & Michael Hynes all have clips w/ good shots of the hands in action. LH1 seems to pivot at both base knuckle and middle knuckle depending on the player. LH2 & 3 are more generally pivoting at the base knuckle, though there's some wiggling of the middle one.

fwiw, pix i've posted elsewhere show the pipers grip i'm using which works well for me on flutes w/ inline holes. it is nice to offset LH & RH sections for pipers, but not necessary, imho.

enjoy! /dan

[monkey587]

one key to relaxation is C#. i have sometimes found myself unconsciously gripping w/ the LH fingers to keep the flute stable. practicing transitions from the other notes to the "all fingers up" note has helped.

That's a good tip. I'll start playing with that tonight and see what I can learn from it.

as for how the left hand fingers move using standard grip, the videos at the Custy's music web site are quite revealing. John Wynne, Kevin Crawford, Catherine McEvoy, Conor Byrne & Michael Hynes all have clips w/ good shots of the hands in action.

OK, I'll be presumptuous and pick on Crawford here. I tried watching the video, but it just wouldn't stream for me; however, I did end up with a still shot of him holding the flute, and his left hand was quite 'cocked back' in my book. That looks typical from what I've seen from others and does not look much different from what I was doing last night, so clearly there's a subtlety that I am looking for. I think the C# thing is a good point; that note definitely instills (as Bro Steve says) fear of dropping, which leads to gripping/tension/etc. Finding a way to get comfortable with that note will probably go a long way towards solving these problems.

[norseman]

I've been using the c# approach a lot lately as I work on using the Rockstro hold from Terry McGee's page. It definately helps isolate the contact points and forces needed to hold the flute from the those needed to play. I stop playing and do a spot check every few minutes with all fingers up just to make sure I haven't shifted anything by playing.

Bob

[bang]

OK, I'll be presumptuous and pick on Crawford here. I tried watching the video, but it just wouldn't stream for me; however, I did end up with a still shot of him holding the flute, and his left hand was quite 'cocked back' in my book.

it's worth noting that Kevin is playing a Bb flute in that clip, which puts the left hand further away. so his wrist may be cocked back more than usual. for me, the interesting thing is how diverse the techniques are among a small set of good players using variations of standard grip. (although, Wynne may be using a pipers variation.) in different ways, each of them has developed a grip which is both relaxed and facile. the clips are big, but finding a computer w/ a high speed net connection might be worth it.

enjoy! /dan

[monkey587]

OK, I'll be presumptuous and pick on Crawford here. I tried watching the video, but it just wouldn't stream for me; however, I did end up with a still shot of him holding the flute, and his left hand was quite 'cocked back' in my book.

it's worth noting that Kevin is playing a Bb flute in that clip, which puts the left hand further away. so his wrist may be cocked back more than usual. for me, the interesting thing is how diverse the techniques are among a small set of good players using variations of standard grip. (although, Wynne may be using a pipers variation.) in different ways, each of them has developed a grip which is both relaxed and facile. the clips are big, but finding a computer w/ a high speed net connection might be worth it.

enjoy! /dan

I'm on a T1 line here at work... I don't think the problem's on my end

Anyway... To me:

Matt looks comfortable
http://www.tradcentre.com/mattmolloys/img/matt1.jpg

Grey looks comfortable
http://www.worldmusiccentral.org/static ... Larsen.jpg

Seamus looks very uncomfortable
http://johnmclaughlin.hypermart.net/SeamusEgan4sm.jpg

I'm itching to go home and play now. 3 more hours...

[ChrisA]

Compared to Matt and Grey, Seamus has his elbow very high, which causes the
wrist to bend ... a lot. I'd say 'too much', but he can play better than I can, so I
must be wrong.

Keys to making the standard grip work, I think, are looking to the left, keeping your
hand high and your elbow low, but out from the body (tight into the body pulls one way,
too high bends the wrist back.)

I definitely do finger L1 with the middle knuckle. The base knuckle flexes a tiny bit, but
that's not where the action is. If I try to work off of that knuckle, I also feel real tension.
All other fingers -do- seem to use the base knuckle mostly.

Body/head rotation is important as well, and everyone seems to have a different preference
here, but it gives a range of angles to choose from, that change the whole wrist/finger/flute
relationship.

All in all, I'd have to say, my left hand is right near the natural range of motion in a whole
lot of ways, but not really crossing the line anywhere. Today. Certainly I had all sorts of
hand strain in the early days, shifting my grip all the time to try to find the 'right' way
to hold the flute. The way I hold it now, I definitely felt that the L1 finger could hardly
move, and certainly not fast... well, I'm -still- not entirely happy with it, but it's coming
along and I believe it can do what I ask, if I practice enough.

[harrywhohaa]

It sounds like I'm doing this holding thing strangely.

I use only thumb on LH pointing up and a little in towards the bottom lip, RH thumb and pinky (at times when no other RH finger down. It's the ends of fingers on the holes and not pipers 'grip'.

I find this completely frees my LH fingers to work as quickly as possibe but I suspect this holding style lacks control over embouchure hole position/strength. The conventional hold of horizontal pinch of LH1 base and thumb leaves my left hand fingerwork inarticulate.

Anyone else holding this way?

[monkey587]

I spent some time this evening working with being able to hold the flute for C#... Mostly in front of a mirror, watching my left wrist. I found that by turning my head to the left and slanting the flute downwards, I was able to reduce the pulling-back of my joints. This was a minor enough change that it didn't seem to bother my back or neck. I tried to focus on being loose and relaxed with my left hand, which seems to be hard with any grip, but doable.

I did feel as though my attempts at ornamentation produced cleaner results, although I am honestly not working on that much right now unless it happens automatically, because just the breathwork and even just holding the instrument is hard enough for me at this point.

One evening of playing this was won't be enough to convince me either way... First I'll have to see how my wrist feels tomorrow, anyway.

I found that playing the tipple flute with ergonomic hole positioning using standard grip tends to facilitate a more relaxed left hand/wrist position than the in-line sweetheart.