Cocobolo opinions? Compared to Blackwood

[Steph7]

Hi,
I wish to ask you opinions about cocobolo wood for a flute.
I've clear in my mind the deep, strong, warm sound of blackwood, however because I really like the dark brown colour of cocobolo I wish to receive technical advises about the sound.
Thanks a lot
G

[emmdee]

I asked Patrick Olwell this very question when he was making mine, pretty much for the same reason (I also love the look of cocobolo), but he said he doesn't use it as he finds it too soft for flutes. That's fine, Patrick knows his onions. Other makers use it, I'm sure. If you have a particular maker in mind, you could do worse than ask them.

m.d.

[Dominic Allan]

A lot of people are allergic to it.

[LorenzoFlute]

Cocobolo is softer and more porous, you can see the little lines that are relatively deep when you look closer. Of course if you treat the wood with french polish or something similar it will get better. I don't have much experience on it to comment about it's tone.
If you like colour, I'd suggest mopane instead, nice and heavy with a tight grain, and a beautiful bright red color. I still prefer the tone of blackwood but mopane is good also...

[tin tin]

Another vote for mopane. I have no experience with cocobolo, but I picked mopane largely for aesthetic reasons, and it's been very stable (and attractive, especially in good light) for the nine years I've had my Copley & Boegli flute.

Apparently, mopane is used for fence posts and aquarium decorations because of its resistance to rot, and I even read that its hardness means it can be used for ball bearings. I'd never heard of wooden ball bearings, but that's what the internet said...

Anyway, maybe not as dramatic-looking as cocobolo, but certainly a fine tonewood to consider in your preferred color.

[Viking of Kiev]

I played one flute in cocobolo, by Martin Doyle. Great flute. Didn't notice any pores in it - cocobolo easily takes mirror polish. The wood seemed to me quite dense and heavy - havier at least and less porous than brazilian rosewood of another flute by Martin Doyle that belonged to that guy who owned the cocobolo flute. I liked the cocobolo flute better though it was about 20 years old and was in Celtic Style, while the rosewood one was Traditional style and brand new.
I have a flute in mopane which is also a great wood - haven't had any problems with it.

I read some makers recommend both cocobolo and mopane for moist and unstable climat regions as the both timbers are dense enough, very oily and due to that stable in moist conditions.

[Geoffrey Ellis]

I've used a lot of cocobolo over the years for many different kinds of flutes. I would never describe it as either "soft" or "porous", even in a relative sense (when compared to something like blackwood). Like all woods I'm sure there are variations depending upon where it came from, the growing conditions, etc., but I get Mexican cocobolo and it is very heavy, very dense, very oily. Not porous at all. Cuts with a glass-like finish in the bore--every bit as shiny and free of visible pores as African blackwood (assuming that one is comparing two high quality examples of each timber). It is not as heavy as blackwood, but it is among the heavier tropical woods. Makes awesome flutes. I use blackwood as well and all other factors being equal (dimensions, hole placements, etc.) I don't think there is any substantial difference in sound or performance between the two.

Blackwood is more traditional and therefore more sought after. Cocobolo has the disadvantage of being an allergen for some people, which would certainly account for it not being a popular wood for flute players.

This is controversial, of course (see the thread on Cocus viewtopic.php?f=2&t=95193&p=1122144&hil ... s#p1122144))

At the heart of it is the whole "does wood choice make a difference" discussion that goes on anywhere that woodwinds are discussed. There are different camps, but though I am relatively new to the world of ITM, I've made a lot of different kinds of flutes out of a very wide variety of timbers (everything from the softest of soft woods to the hardest of hardwoods) so I've been able to do a lot of comparing. I seriously doubt that in a blind test any player is going to notice the difference between two woods like blackwood and cocobolo, assuming that all of the other factors can be made equal.

But again, it's a controversial topic.

[Jayhawk]

FWIW, I have three pieces of mopane roots that have been submerged in my aquarium for over 10 years that are still solid. The stuff is the best/longest lasting "driftwood" I have ever had.

Eric

[tompipes]

Cocobola is a beautiful timber that should make fine flutes. I've made several uilleann pipes chanters from it with success. It looks and sounds great.

The problem with it, from a makers point of view, is that the saw dust from the wood is toxic. You won't have an allergic reaction but over exposure will give you a skin infection! You have to be so careful!!

Playing a flute made from it is a different story. There are minimal chances of the toxic sap absorbing into your skin by just playing it.
In saying that some people have reactions to it but if you do have a reaction chances are that you may react to African Blackwood and other Rosewoods too as they are all Dalbergias.
If you like the look of a lighter coloured wood, Mopane is great. Or there are options of a plastic/Delrin head with a wood body.

It's a real pity because Cocobola really is a beautiful timber.

Tommy

[chas]

I've had flutes from Glenn Schultz and Hammy Hamilton made from it. They both had mirror finish, in the bore and on the outside -- no porosity or anything, even after a few years of playing (It's almost as dense as ABW, and just as oily). The only reason I parted with either (especially the Hammy) was ergonomics. Glenn worked in different woods, but from Hammy it was a special order. He said he enjoyed working on it.

I've turned a bit of coco, and for me it works quite similarly to blackwood. I stay away from it now because of allergies and the horror stories that have been related here and elsewhere related to turning it. I've had a reaction to playing one whistle I made, and I figure the writing's on the wall. It's too bad, the stuff smells wonderful when it's turned.

[Geoffrey Ellis]

I take great care working with cocobolo, and so far I haven't had any problems. I use a PAPR unit when I'm cutting, sanding, etc.. and I vent my shop aggressively. Plus I wear a dust jacket to avoid too much skin contact.

I've never heard from anyone of my customers about any allergic reactions, but I typically coat the flutes with epoxy, lacquer or both, so there is always a barrier between the player and the wood.

I think tompipes is correct in saying that a player who is sensitive to touching a cocobolo instrument might have problems with other rosewoods. Luckily, there are lots of nice flute timbers out there.

[Jon C.]

I take great care working with cocobolo, and so far I haven't had any problems. I use a PAPR unit when I'm cutting, sanding, etc.. and I vent my shop aggressively. Plus I wear a dust jacket to avoid too much skin contact.

I've never heard from anyone of my customers about any allergic reactions, but I typically coat the flutes with epoxy, lacquer or both, so there is always a barrier between the player and the wood.

I think tompipes is correct in saying that a player who is sensitive to touching a cocobolo instrument might have problems with other rosewoods. Luckily, there are lots of nice flute timbers out there.

A lot of woodworkers that turn cocobolo use tyvac space suits. It is not so much that the wood has a allergic reaction, it is poisonous. I have no problem turning cocuswood, blackwood or Madagascar Rosewood, but cocobolo made me look like a "prize fighter that lost" the next morning after turning it. I guess you could put a silver lip plate on it... Nelson the "Rocket Scientist" had a lovely 8 key in cocobolo made by John Gallagher, he had to treat the lip area with superglue.

[Geoffrey Ellis]

Well, as they say "One man's allergen is another man's poison". Wait...that's not right, is it?

I've heard of some extreme reactions to cocobolo, similar to what Jon is describing (swelling, hives, respiratory distress, etc.). Interestingly, even though I've taken great care to protect my lungs from it, I've actually gotten quite a bit of it on my skin (hands and forearms) without any adverse affects. That is not to say that cumulative exposure of that kind wouldn't catch up to me, but that is really what an allergy is: sensitivity to a mild toxin. I get stung by a bee and it hurts and the sting site swells a little bit. My brother gets stung and goes to the ER. It's poisonous to both of us, but in different degree. I'd be sorry to get allergic to cocobolo because I love working with it, so I have a good motivation to be careful!

[jim stone]

Well then, as cocobolo is potentially an allergen, and as once a wood allergy gets started it may make it difficult to play other woods that otherwise would have remained benign, and as everyone seems to agree that blackwood sounds at least as good, it certainly seems to make sense (be prudent) to choose blackwood. I appreciate liking the way this or that wood looks, but I suggest the flute is an 'instrument' for playing music, first and foremost. Why take such risks just to use a wood one likes the look of better? Also, blackwood is elegant and beautiful stuff, anyhow, even if it doesn't win the beauty contest.

[Geoffrey Ellis]

Well then, as cocobolo is potentially an allergen, and as once a wood allergy gets started it may make it difficult to play other woods that otherwise would have remained benign, and as everyone seems to agree that blackwood sounds at least as good, it certainly seems to make sense (be prudent) to choose blackwood. I appreciate liking the way this or that wood looks, but I suggest the flute is an 'instrument' for playing music, first and foremost. Why take such risks just to use a wood one likes the look of better? Also, blackwood is elegant and beautiful stuff, anyhow, even if it doesn't win the beauty contest.

From a player's perspective I don't think the risk is as great as it is to the maker. But your point is well taken if there is any apprehension about making other woods unplayable due to sensitivity. My only source of information on cocobolo allergies is anecdotal, but it seems like it is common for woodworkers to get reactions from it and not so common for end users of a product (flute, knife handle, guitar fretboard, etc.).

As a maker, there are other reasons for wanting to develop alternate flute timbers. Blackwood is relatively expensive and more difficult to obtain that many other woods, and the sizes in which it is available impose some limits on what you can make from it. I can buy blackwood directly from a supplier in Africa and get a decent price per piece, but I have to buy quite a lot and then pay freight and wait a couple of months for it to travel by boat to the nearest port. If I buy from domestic retailers, I pay a lot more and don't always find what I want. Same for Mopane, which I've never had a chance to use because I couldn't justify the cost of an international shipment of it.

Other rosewoods become very attractive under these circumstances, especially if I can get them in longer pieces. Cocobolo is a great wood in so many respects, and with a few precautions in the shop, and with the right finish I think it is perfectly safe for the player. However, it is no longer as easy to to obtain as it once was, and it might become a bit more rare in the future. Luckily, I hung onto a large quantity of construction grade Douglas Fir to see me through the lean times.