Geoffrey Ellis Pratten Style Flute - Tour Anyone?

[paddler]

Pat, I hope nothing I said caused offense. I took your comments at face value and just wanted to check on the temperature in case that was an issue.

My take is that you probably are, as you suggest, a relatively flat player. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, for this flute with its neutral tuning occurring with the tuning slide almost completely closed, there is insufficient scope for tuning it sharper. This is really useful feedback for Geoffrey! It suggests that the head should be shortened fairly substantially, so that the neutral tuning occurs with the slide in a more open position, hence, allowing players who blow flat to sharpen the flute.

I for one appreciate the time you took to evaluate the flute, and your honesty and courage in posting your impressions of it. It would be a worthless exercise if everyone just showered praise and kept their criticisms to themselves.

Jon

[Gordon]

I agree with Pat that this particular flute simply didn't feel ready, yet. I won't speculate why.

Please feel free to speculate if you can! I know that it is a highly subjective process comparing a flute to another flute or evaluating it's character, performance, etc..

However, the value to me is in the details. Knowing that a player doesn't like the flute as well as another maker's work certainly has some value because it tells a bit about the players tastes, but it doesn't give me much to go on. I say this as general encouragement to all tour participants, Gordon, since your review already contains a lot of great detail (much appreciated!).

I like to know if the player finds it too bright, too dark, difficult to develop a tone, easy to develop, whether they have trouble with the tuning, whether it is balanced for them, is it too reedy, not reedy enough, too heavy, too light, etc., etc. You get the idea. Any and all detailed observations are welcome!

I say this only to encourage the players to speak freely, not to pressure them to try and quantify the unquantifiable. I recognize that sometimes it is just a "feeling" and may not be something that language can address.

Thanks, Geoffrey. I didn't want to speculate because I didn't want to add conjecture to a subjective impression - speculating puts ideas out that have no basis in actual fact, and might be construed as such by others, down the road; opinions in the wind often come back as quotable fact. Just ask Fox News..

It is interesting, as Feadoggie commented, that some of these reviews sound like we're all talking about different flutes; that, as they say, is what makes horse races. Again, I appreciated the workmanship and aesthetic of the flute itself, loved your use of non-traditional woods (and the nicely placed blackwood within them). I liked its weight and balance. I always try to find the best embouchure angle with a new flute - usually, the adjustment(s) needed are minor, but they can make a huge difference. So I found the flute's sweet spot immediately and, by my second and third day with the flute, it was there each and every time I picked it up.

Unfortunately, I ended, still, with an impression of not-all-that-interesting. Since you asked, I'll try to explain, and speculate, a bit.

The overall design, and the embouchure cut in particular, seemed very accessible to a lazier, less focused embouchure, and almost fell apart (or became less dynamic) when I used a more focused, driving embouchure. This is the sort of focus that makes the Hamilton sound better and better as I nail it more accurately. With your Pratten flute, I achieved a nice, accommodating sound with very little effort, but when I zeroed in on a more focused sound, the flute seemed to lose its sound and fury, rather than ramp it up. This seemed sort of counter-intuitive - Prattens generally need to get pushed a bit before they take on more interesting or complex overtones - I'm always thrilled, and a bit proud of myself, when I can reach that point and maintain it through a performance or practice session. Your Pratten, strangely, did not seem to like being pushed, falling flat (figuratively) each time I did so. So, I'd ease off, and the nice, even tone would return. Which left me wanting more, and a bit frustrated, spiritually speaking, not getting more for the effort.

So, some speculation:

A number of other successful flute makers shoot for exactly this same trade-off; easy power, without the sort of laser-focus necessary to drive their flutes. I follow their thinking on this, in theory, but I almost always find the flutes themselves less than inspiring beyond a certain point, and that's about where this flute left me. I'm not a flute maker, so I have no technical suggestions on how to either change this or meet it halfway, or if that's even what you're thinking about, or want. As I said in my first report, I think the flute has a sound some players will be very happy with, but, for me, it seemed the ceiling was too easy to reach and impossible to get beyond; it was going to sound the way it sounds, and no more. Maybe this was intentional on your part, and, if so, we're back to the proverbial horse race. But maybe a sharpening of the embouchure cut, a narrowing of the "sweet spot", would allow it more space to push past.

Or not.

Another possibility - and I'm personally dubious about this one - is that the marine epoxy you are using to coat these less-dense woods in some way inhibits the air flow as the flute warms. I'm dubious, because I'm in the not-the-material camp, when it comes to flute magic. OTOH, new experiments in finishes and timbers may result in unforeseen results, either good or bad. Have you tried the same flute specs with different sealers? Impregnated paraffin, or a delrin bore? Just thinking as I type...

I do want to reiterate that my opinion here is only that, and based entirely on that one flute. In not too long a time span, I think you'll be cranking out truly superb (Irish) flutes, in addition to your other ethnic flutes.

Best,
Gordon

[OldHag]

With this overboarding answer you discourage the non-english language speakers to understand the situation

[Gordon]

With this overboarding answer you discourage the non-english language speakers to understand the situation

Sorry. Didn't follow that.

[Geoffrey Ellis]

Gordon,

That is superb and nuanced feedback--very much on point. In fact, it dovetails pretty much exactly with some ideas that Jon Walpole (paddler) wrote to me privately just yesterday. You are both on the same wavelength.

Jon also suggested that the "friendlier" embouchure cut was a potentially limiting factor for some players, and I'm working on another Pratten this moment that is utilizing a slightly smaller and much more rounded embouchure--more of a true ellipse. Being new to ITM, I'm learning what are the characteristics that attract players to certain flutes, and it seems that the majority favor a less "squared" ellipse. As you say, it's a smaller target, but has more character. I've done a few flutes with an embouchure cut just like a silver flute and it produced a flute with a loud voice and easy tone development, but with a character that I wasn't that fond of. A huge, less complex voice.

We talked about the epoxy finish as well, speculating upon the potential behavior of moisture in the bore, how it might cling to the surface, and whether that would have any appreciable effect upon the flute. I have some experiments lined up to test this notion, and I'll share what I find (if I find anything at all). I'm more inclined to think the embouchure cut to be a bigger factor.

And finally there is the cut of the taper in the bore itself--probably another big factor. I got my Pratten plans from Terry McGee, and he did a very thorough job of measuring the bore profile. When I went to have a reamer made, my machinist helper observed that there were many very tiny variations in the bore profile (we had done a CAD drawing and were sitting goggling at it on the monitor). At the time (a few years ago) I didn't know any better and I acquiesced to the suggestion that they were "so small that it would be a lot easier to cut a straight taper", smoothing out the irregularities! Many experienced makers of flutes for ITM are probably smiling and shaking their heads at this moment. Jon, who has a fabulous flute collection and who has measured and analyzed a great many flutes, both antique and modern, has been encouraging me for the last year to make some new reamers and to engineer the irregularities back in, quite rightly pointing out that they undoubtedly have an effect. As he put it, "There is a reason all of these flutes exhibit these same tendencies in the bore".

All of these things (embouchure cut, bore profile, interior finish) are in themselves quite small. But their cumulative effect is quite a different matter. A tweak to the embouchure, a few tweaks in the bore profile, and suddenly a good flute becomes a great flute. And that is the point of a tour!

[Gordon]

Glad my comments have some relevance for you, Geoffrey, and that they were taken in the spirit I intended. Words are slippery things - in re-reading my own post(s), I realize I've used words that could imply more or less than I meant when using them, and I always worry I've over-stated some issues too much, or - worse - stepped into a minefield I'd not intended to.

I agree it's probably the embouchure most at issue, although the bore and tools you use to ream them are interesting points, along with your discussions about the epoxy - a bit above my pay-grade, to be honest... I just try to play these things!

Again, I appreciate having had the opportunity to play your flutes. I also hope that subsequent tour fluters approach these flutes with fresh eyes and are not too influenced by any one review or prior comment they've read beforehand.

Best,
Gordon

[scattering_mud]

I've had Mr. Ellis' flutes for the better part of a week, and have some comments that apply to my perception and my playing of it. I won't repeat things stated earlier. By way of my background, I've played Irish flute for 12 years, before that german made recorders and renaissance flutes made by Barbara Stanely. I currently own two McGee flutes, a 'd' Rudall Refined with four keys, and a keyless 'c." I have previously owned and played a Casey Burns keyless and a six-keyed Gilles Lehart in mopane.

The flutes I've known (except Casey's) were four part Rudall style flutes. This probably colors my experience in playing Mr. Ellis' Pratten style flute.

My comments are brief and as follows:

1. I find the "action" difficult for my playing. This is more of a guitar/violin term, but what I mean is the ability to move around quickly and accurately with a full tone. This may have to do with the way in which the holes are cut, I don't know. But compared with my McGee flute (a different style flute, yes), I find it very difficult with the Ellis flute to get the notes out cleanly when playing at a normal tempo. I may be hampered by the fact that I'm used to having the holes "offset" on my various Rudall style flutes. The Pratten style has only one midsection. Some makers offer offset holes for their Pratten flutes; this may be an option that Mr. Ellis may want to consider. But this is only my experience; others may have no problem with the holes as such.

2. Related to number one above is that it might be easier to play this flute with a flat finger piper approach, rather than with the pads of the fingers, as noted by an earlier reviewer. I play with my pads, and find it hard to switch this approach. So this may have colored by experience with the flute.

3. The distance between the 'e' and 'd' notes is more than I am personally used to. My McGee has a distance of approximately 3.8 centimeters between the the far end of the 'e' hole and the corresponding far end of the 'd' hole. On the Ellis flute, this distance is approximately 4.2 cm. This was a factor for me. The distance is even greater with the one-piece bamboo Ellis flute, which was approximately 4.6 cm. I found this very difficult to adjust to.

4. The Mexican kingwood wood is attractive. It has a balanced feel and weight when holding and playing it. It's not heavy nor light. My four-key McGee, which is light in terms of keyed flutes I've known, weighs 316 grams, the keyless Ellis flute weighs 306 grams.

5. I wonder about the blackwood insert for the embouchere hole. I personally would rather have an embouchere cut from the wood of the flute itself. But I'm not a flute maker, and can't really pass judgment on this decision. I wonder if the two different woods will age differently and in sync in terms of dryness, expansion, etc.

6. The tuning slide (partially lined) is nicely done and easily used.

7. I like the use of threaded rather than corked connections. I've had cork come off in more than one of my flutes.

I'm grateful for the opportunity to try Mr. Ellis' flutes. I will mail them tomorrow to Robert Robison of Tennessee, next up on the flute tour!

-Jeff Zajac

[Doc Jones]

I just sold this one through the store. Pratten in Bocote.
Quite a dandy.



Doc

[skyspirit]

A quick note. I have had the tour flutes for about a week now. Actually, between myself and my teacher. So, they will soon be going to the next person on the list. I will soon then give mine and my teacher's thoughts. I reviewed the previous comments in preparation for my commments to try to avoid duplication.

Before that, I want to thank feadoggie for mananging the tour. A true gentleman. Also, thanks Geoffrey for putting your flutes on the tour. By doing so, all will benefit.

Be well in all that you do.

[skyspirit]

Flutes are on their way to Pipersgrip.

[skyspirit]

Much has been said about Geoff's flutes. What follows is what my teacher and I thought of them. We want to thank Geoff for putting his flutes on the tour. We also want to thank feadoggie as well for managing the tour. Sorry for the delay in posting.

In regards to the epoxy, we thought that it hampered the tone. We are not sure why. The epoxy maybe too thick. My teacher played an epoxy baroque boxwood flute where the coat was so thin that you could not tell it was there. As for me, I have coated exterior NAF's with marine epoxy. You really have to work at getting it thin enought. Once set, it isn't easy to sand it. An uneven coat is unsightly. I would think that it would be tougher inside the bore. Not sure if laquer techniques (like in Shak's) would be easier or better.
We did not like the maple flute. My teacher could not get a good bead on the emb. He is not sure how to improve it. He recommeds that if Geoffrey wanted to make a budget wooden conical flute, he should consider the folk flute approach. I could not make the stretch with the right hand. I could on the pratten.

Some positives on the pratten:

The slide worked great, smooth and effective. The weight and balance was great, and we thought it very well done aesthetically. Despite being more rudall-oriented my teacher did like the sound a lot. His main complaint was the inflexibility in regards to embouchure. There was really only that one approach available to him. He really thinks with some refinement, Geoff will have a great flute on his hands

[Geoffrey Ellis]

Much has been said about Geoff's flutes. What follows is what my teacher and I thought of them. We want to thank Geoff for putting his flutes on the tour. We also want to thank feadoggie as well for managing the tour. Sorry for the delay in posting.

In regards to the epoxy, we thought that it hampered the tone. We are not sure why. The epoxy maybe too thick. My teacher played an epoxy baroque boxwood flute where the coat was so thin that you could not tell it was there. As for me, I have coated exterior NAF's with marine epoxy. You really have to work at getting it thin enought. Once set, it isn't easy to sand it. An uneven coat is unsightly. I would think that it would be tougher inside the bore. Not sure if laquer techniques (like in Shak's) would be easier or better.
We did not like the maple flute. My teacher could not get a good bead on the emb. He is not sure how to improve it. He recommeds that if Geoffrey wanted to make a budget wooden conical flute, he should consider the folk flute approach. I could not make the stretch with the right hand. I could on the pratten.

Some positives on the pratten:

The slide worked great, smooth and effective. The weight and balance was great, and we thought it very well done aesthetically. Despite being more rudall-oriented my teacher did like the sound a lot. His main complaint was the inflexibility in regards to embouchure. There was really only that one approach available to him. He really thinks with some refinement, Geoff will have a great flute on his hands

Thanks for the feedback, Skyspirit--very useful.

As far as epoxy affecting the tone, I suspect it isn't the epoxy itself having anything like a dampening effect (due to added density or anything like that), but rather (as paddler speculated in an e-mail exchange) that a generous layer of epoxy in the bore might mask some of the nuances of the bore profile itself by acting as a "smoother" of the minor perturbations.

A lot has changed since the tour flutes have gone out into the world. I'm making new reamers for the Pratten flutes that are more "authentic" (true to the original blueprints), I've made some alterations to the embouchure cut and I've also changed my epoxy application methods after having a nice chat with the manufacturer of the epoxy, who happened to actually know quite a bit about how to apply it effectively. I know, shocking isn't it? I told him what I was up to and he made some very useful observations. After following his advice I've been managing to seal the bores of my flutes without having to apply a thick enough layer to change the actual bore profile, so ideally I'll keep the advantage of it as a sealer without the potential disadvantage of it distorting the bore profile.

The tapered head flute (which is the Maple flute on this tour) has also undergone a few versions and upgrades and is now greatly improved. All of the detailed feedback from a variety of players has helped this process along, once again showing the value of a flute tour among serious enthusiasts. The new version is more reachable and has a much more "ITM-ish" voice and embouchure cut.

[skyspirit]

Geoff,

Great news to hear about the epoxy and the changes to the maple flute. As a side note, have you considered making a rudall style flute? I for one would like to see that somewhere down the road.

Thanks again for puttting your flutes on the tour. I wish you the best in your journey with Irish flutes.

[stanton135]

Okay, I've had both Ellis flutes here for the last week, and it's time to post my thoughts. First, the full disclosure: I don't consider myself that much of a transverse flute player. I taught myself some Boehm flute in high school (mostly to play Jethro Tull), and since then I've played mainly guitar and low whistle. The transverse flute that I play most often nowadays is a Tipple-style DIY flute with a circular embouchure hole and a custom 8-hole tube design. Prior to receiving the Ellis flutes, I'd played conical flute for a grand total of 5 minutes—a Copley delrin that I sampled at a noisy festival. Anything negative I have to say below is probably more a reflection on my technique than on the flutes themselves.

I've made some demo recordings of these instruments, which you can compare to me playing various other flutes and whistles. The...accompanist is my 11-month-old. https://www.box.com/s/h0mga65i0tebv9fswch6

It took me a few days of intermittent practice sessions with the Ellis Pratten before I began to feel like I was getting a halfway satisfactory tone. The embouchure shape is very different from what I'm used to (as is the bore). I think that with further practice, my tone would continue to improve. It took awhile for me to get the hang of hitting second octave E cleanly, without breaking it up to the 2nd harmonic, high B. I think that this may have to do with the small size of the B3 hole on the Pratten design.

I use the piper's grip with my right hand, and the bottom hand hole spacings are very comfortable for me. With my left hand, I've always used my fingertips, and I've found that after a prolonged playing session, my left hand begins feeling uncomfortable and threatening to cramp up. I don't know if Mr. Ellis offers offset tone holes, but I think that an offset T3 for my left ring finger could fix that problem.

I found that I appear to blow transverse flutes pretty flat, because I had to close the tuning slide down to just 1-2mm to bring the flute to concert pitch. When I did this, of course, the upper hand notes were sharpened a bit more than the lower hand notes, and I had to concentrate on bringing A, B, and Cnat down a little with my embouchure. With more practice I'm sure that would become automatic.

I use OXX XOX and OXX XOO for low C natural with this flute. OXX OOO works fine too, if I'm conscientious about not blowing it sharp. XOX XXX works okay for low Bb. Just like the Copley that I tried, this flute really does not want to give me a G# at all. XXO XXX is way too sharp for low G#, and XXO XOX is way too sharp for high G#; XXO XXO is too flat. Half-holing is difficult; the tone goes sort of woozy on me. XXO X/O for high G# seems to be about as close as I can get. XOX OOO for high Bb is usable. OXO XXX for high C natural works well. OOO XXX for the C# sounds slightly flat to my ears, and OXX XOO sounds slightly sharp—it could just be my embouchure. OXX OOO for high D and XXO XXO for high E both seem correct. The flute itself was willing to go higher still, but I was not!

Regarding this flute's relatively poor responsiveness to chromatic fingerings, I want to reiterate that I don't consider this to be any fault of Geoff's; in my own experiments in instrument building, it's always been easier to get satisfactory cross-fingerings and half-holings out of a fipple flute than out of an otherwise equivalent transverse flute. It must be some peculiarity of the physics, I suppose.


I found the maple Ellis flute substantially easier and more intuitive to play, and I think the reason is obvious: with its cylindrical bore, it responds more like my DIY flute. Tone hole sizing and spacing is extremely similar to my MK low D whistle, so covering the holes was no problem—although again, if I ordered one, I'd ask for an offset T3 hole. The embouchure hole's position was comfortable enough for me, although I'd understand how some people would prefer it rotated a bit.

Again, it appears that I blow transverse flutes fairly flat. I checked the tuning of the demo recording I made against Flutini, and I was blowing most of the notes on the flute about 15-20 cents flat of A440, except for both Ds, which were about 5 cents flat, and both Gs and high A, which were about 30-35 cents flat. (With more practice playing this flute, I imagine that I would learn to level the scale a bit more.) I understand the simplicity and lowered cost of making a flute with no tuning slide, but maybe a simple tenon would provide a bit of tuning latitude and allow for different embouchure rotations.

The cylindrical flute got cross-fingered G#s with XXO XXX and XXO XOX that were *just* close enough to pitch to be useful in quick passages; other than that, it seems to behave pretty similarly to the Pratten in terms of chromatic fingerings. I didn't try taking it up into the third octave.


In summing up, my main observations are pretty much in line with everyone else's: these flutes are quality work, and show definite promise. With the few adjustments that have already been suggested, I imagine they'll be extremely good instruments. So I'll say again: thank you Mr. Ellis, for making such beautiful flutes and letting as all try them, and thank you Feadoggie, for organizing the tour. I had an enjoyable and informative time test-driving!

[O_Gaiteiro_do_Chicago]

So, I was the last person to get to try out the flute on this tour. I have to say I'm quite pleased with the design of this flute. The only tweaks I see necessary are making the barrel slightly shorter so I can play at 440 with the slide extended about .25". I also have a different preference for how I like the embouchure to be cut which I've already mentioned to Geoffrey. I think there is some great potential for these flutes. I especially appreciate the aesthetics, they are a nice change of pace and feel good in the hands. Anywho, I made a couple videos showing what sort of sound I was able to get out of it. With the tweak I think the flute will be perfect.

http://youtu.be/PxZYrGvpMfs

http://youtu.be/-bcslWB7SAY