Four keys for nine fingers?

[Peter Duggan]

Of course, a Boehm flute player wouldn't get far with a stuck thumb!

So obvious as soon as you think about it or pick the thing up!

Very good, so the Lthumb G# should be a definite goer.

Also good because it keeps the key on the same joint (assuming separate LH and RH joints)?

Looking at your image of G# on the Boehm reinforces for me that it would be desirable to have a maker tweak the key specially for you.

Absolutely! So it looks like I've got little or no room to move before starting to roll the pinkie off the hole and little below it to avoid accidental G#s, although this also raises the question of whether a slight leak from the hole's going to kill the G# the way it kills the G?

Incidentally, a variant would be to have the Lthumb G# as per the German flute, and an over-the-top lever hooked under it near the pad so that it could be operated from the audience side too. Or the opposite, an over-the-top G# with an auxiliary lever for the L thumb!

Liking your thinking here, especially with the thumb option probably the percentage choice and one hole for two keys a tidy way to implement both!

Also thinking we're probably talking relatively small-holed flutes with my pinkie stretched to cover L3, so have taken some crude measurements off my Sweetheart, giving us L1 at <=8mm, L2 at <=9mm and L3 at c.7.5mm with even centres of c.37.5mm. On which note I dunno how much bigger/wider I could go, and would simply have to try before committing there!

[Peter Duggan]

Terry and I were thinking along similar lines.... and your further thoughts plus your pictures clarify things. I think, on the G# front, the way forward is a French style G# key with a touch extended and angled as per Rob Sharer's to facilitate L3 operation/slide-over, plus an extra "Tromlitz lever" to its cup for a L thumb key in a kind of reverse of the normal extra Bb touch. That would be a flexible resource and could be constructed quite elegantly. It would even be an easy modification to make to an existing French (key style) flute. (FWIW, there are later C19th English-made flutes out there with French-made or French-style-copied keys on 'em!). It would probably be a good idea to have the extra Bb lever for R1 as well.

All good stuff, Jem, but responding separately because it came up while I was previewing my previous reply...

Two further thoughts arise. One is that you may well be better off going for pillar mounted rather than block mounted keys, whether you opt for a new-made or antique (and adapted) flute - they are less likely to get in the way. The other is that, if you are going for having a long C key, your possible modified L middle finger position may pose problems in that the finger will collide with or overlap the shank of the key. You will probably have to chose between having the standard key and retaining your original hand posture or modifying the posture and having to either dispense with the C key or have that custom re-located too.

No decisions yet about that L2 finger position (just play-testing for pros and cons, and need time for that).

Another design consideration if you are going for new-build is whether to have a one- or two-piece body, as that affects the possibilities of tone-hole and therefore key placement (and maybe extra interlinkages) I suspect you would be best having a "Pratten style" one-piece body, regardless of the bore and tone-hole styles applied to it.

Interesting (and I can see your point!), although I was also wondering if separate sections would leave me the option of tweaking my optimum LH angle?

So, the L hand/upper body design seems to be in hand...... Which leaves the R hand (physically normal) and the F natural question. If you dumped the normal G# in favour of a thumb-key only (or thumb key with R1 lever like the Bb), you could then have an extended long F touch instead: I doubt having both long F and G# would be practicable, howsoever cleverly constructed. Otherwise you are back to short F only, with or without tone-hole construction to allow for a viable forked F. If you had a one-piece body, there would be the possible option of another extra L thumb lever to open the short F

My head's buzzing (need to stop and work out how many keys we're discussing now and what they do!)...

I have a demo video clip of a (slightly low pitch) 5-key French flute somewhere which shows how not-quiet and good sounding they can be - no time now, but I'll try to upload it and make it available over the next few days. My thinking here is that you could acquire a French flute for relatively little money (under £200, even under £100) - it might not even matter if it was LP for test purposes (though if it worked well, being unable to use it in company could be frustrating!) - and even have experimental mods made on it comparatively cheaply (Ormiston, Reviol, Dom Allan, Worrell?). If you get a concert pitch one, it might be the ultimate solution, and even with modification costs, almost certainly far cheaper than a bespoke new-build. If not the final choice, it would help greatly in working towards a final design which you could be confident about for special order.

Have to say I really appreciate the likes of Terry and yourself taking such an interest, so rest assured that (despite my enthusiasm/excitement about it all) I'm not rushing into anything!

(I have some in hand, though not worked on, and could even bodge up an experimental G# key extension.)

Edit (following your edit): some whats, Jem? French flutes, concert-pitch French flutes, G# keys?

Cheers
P

[jemtheflute]

French flutes. Can't recall exactly what offhand and am in work now until 1 am. At least one 8-key, maybe a 6 key and a couple of 5 keys, some diapason normal (LP), maybe some at 440. Varying states of disrepair/amounts of work required. Will check tomorrow.

[Peter Duggan]

So, the L hand/upper body design seems to be in hand...... Which leaves the R hand (physically normal) and the F natural question. If you dumped the normal G# in favour of a thumb-key only (or thumb key with R1 lever like the Bb), you could then have an extended long F touch instead: I doubt having both long F and G# would be practicable, howsoever cleverly constructed. Otherwise you are back to short F only, with or without tone-hole construction to allow for a viable forked F. If you had a one-piece body, there would be the possible option of another extra L thumb lever to open the short F

My head's buzzing (need to stop and work out how many keys we're discussing now and what they do!)...

OK, so my 'four-keyed' flute has five keys opening four holes (Eb, short F, Bb and 'dual action' OTT/L thumb G#) and my 'five-keyed' flute has six opening five (adding the C)? Alternate R1 Bb and L thumb F touches (if both practicable and desired) bring me up to eight (potentially still opening just five holes?), and thank goodness I'm not interested in low C and C# because ten's sounding like expensive clutter when my OP's asking about four!

So how about this C key? The thumb hole's clearly out of the question if I'm needing my L thumb for G# and Bb but, assuming I've got a good forked C (say OXXOOO), how do we rate clarity of keyed note, additional venting for C# and ease of moving between B and C? (No problems cross-fingering as a recorder player except where cross-fingerings cramp your trad style!)

Also, some more general thoughts (not key-specific) on aesthetics, materials etc. to consider...

• While I prefer the appearance of a simple D foot to those longer versions with venting 'C' and 'C#' holes, I'm willing to be persuaded of their merits.
• While I know that Terry's opinions re. tuning slide construction and head linings may not be universally shared (indeed can't be when good makers are still building fully-lined heads et al.), they make sense to me and I'd need some convincing to consider a 'non-compliant' new-build in wood.
• I'm open-minded about block or post mounts for keys (can you still do post mounts on a Delrin body?).
• I won't touch boxwood with a bargepole for a new-build! (Irrational, perhaps, but never loved my expensive low-pitch Bressan-copy recorder quite as much after it warped while still new.)
• While I can't see myself rejecting properly-repaired cracks in an older instrument, I do have this thing about warping even when things play fine (see Bressan-copy recorder above).
• While working with a relatively local maker obviously makes sense in terms of potential for hands-on collaboration, the most important thing's got to be working with someone (wherever they are) who both understands what I want and accepts my foibles/hang-ups (see boxwood, lined heads etc. in new-builds).
• Can't help wondering whether makers are more likely to think 'great, custom-build, something a bit different to try, potential website feature, let's get cracking' or 'awkward job, difficult customer, really don't fancy this', but guess I'm looking for the former!

Might add that I'm bound to go trying baroque/classical repertoire on this flute despite being well aware that trad-optimised simple-system models are no more 'baroque' than Boehms. But then Bach still 'works' on Boehm flutes and pianos and you can't give me keys and expect me to leave them alone!

And finally (as they say on the news), you should know that I'd written all of the above and saved it as a .txt file pending posting (or otherwise if I was saying too many silly things!) before heading back to Terry's site, where I've just spent another hour or two discovering there's nothing new under the sun and I might as well post my unoriginal (but not too silly) musings verbatim...

Cheers
P

[jemtheflute]

Making pretty good sense, Peter.

For interest's sake, have a look at this new eBay listing from Grzegorz Tomaszewicz, who lists quite regularly on eBay. He does doctor old LP instruments up to 440 (I have no idea how satisfactorily), but usually states that in his listings - though I'd be inclined to check with him before bidding on anything. If that flute does play with good intonation (of its kind) at 440, his asking price is very good value for money. But the main point in linking it was so you can examine the key lay-out of a French flute. Of course, this one has the added advantages of a long F and full C foot. One reason I often advocate antique flutes in conversations like this one is that there no extra cost in the bottom end keys when you buy an antique! Moreover, you might well be able to use (with due liaison with your maker) the antique foot on a modern bespoke body with your other mods built in!

Here's the French flute demo clip I promised and you should be able to view some detailed photos of it here (let me know if you can't).

One advantage of making experimental key modifications on a French flute is that their springs are almost always screw attached, making it simple to remove them whilst soldering, avoiding annealing (softening/de-tempering them), whereas English flutes until quite late tend to have sprue-rivets (part of the original casting) and German ones through-drilled rivets, so removing/replacing the springs is awkward/rather more work. Whilst the G# key on this particular French flute is not really reachable with L3 in its standard position, I can easily see a way to solder on an extension and bend it to bring it into a suitable shape and position.

As for what I have in hand awaiting attention which might be of interest from a consideration of technical possibilities angle (I'm not chasing sales here : the anon French flute in the clip/photos is fixed up but provisionally spoken for, BTW), there's another decent anon 6-keyer, slightly low pitch with slide closed, but conceivably re-tunable with not too much difficulty, then there's a definitely low pitch Couesnon 10 keyer - this has the normal 8 keys with C foot plus a high E trill and a Tulou F# lever - the latter being another thing you might find worth consideration!

Lastly there is a large holed 440-playable anonymous English 8-keyer with French style L hand keys and Bohm style rod-axle foot keys - the foot keys and the non-original long F are a mess at present, but readily fixable, and the lateral G# key is actually operable with L3 as-is in the way you probably require (I can just about do it without leaking the quite large A hole!) and could easily be improved a bit to that end. (If I just did this flute up for normal use I'd actually need to bend the G# more out of the way of L3!) This flute is in good condition apart from a routine head crack (non-embouchure) and the messed up old key alterations. It might well offer most of what you seek and be easily modifiable with regard to extra keys/touch levers as previously envisaged.

I haven't any photos of this English or the two French flutes at present, nor time to do them this week due to other things needing doing, but there are possibilities. I think getting your hands on some of these things, even if not playable, would be a useful exercise for your development ideas, Peter, if there were a way we could arrange that.

[jemtheflute]

Oh, a supplementary thought I had, slightly at variance with one of the things Terry wrote earlier. Still in the field of getting a cheap antique and adapting it as a tester for mods, actually I think it would be very easy to adapt a typical German oblique G# key for you to operate with your L3 as described - one would simply need to solder on a suitable flange extension to the key touch. Easier, in fact, than doing the same for an English style straight, far-side G#. Fitting one with an extra thumb lever would not, however, be so practicable as on a French style lateral G# key.

[Peter Duggan]

For interest's sake, have a look at this new eBay listing from Grzegorz Tomaszewicz, who lists quite regularly on eBay.

Have messaged you about this one.

the added advantages of a long F

Clearly unusable for me 'as is', but the G# style/position looks promising.

Here's the French flute demo clip I promised and you should be able to view some detailed photos of it here (let me know if you can't).

Again, thanks for that (have tried tootling along and agree about the pitch). But don't seem to be able to get to the photos without an account...

I'm not chasing sales here

No need when I'm just as likely to be chasing you (given your interest) if you can help!

I think getting your hands on some of these things, even if not playable, would be a useful exercise for your development ideas, Peter, if there were a way we could arrange that.

Sure we can arrange something if I'm needing to try some options without leaping feet first into historic flute collecting (on which note, I've also just discovered oldflutes.com), so can only hope you're finding this whole thing as interesting as I am (thinking the 'challenge' in it maybe appeals to you and Terry?)!

Thanks again
P

[Peter Duggan]

It's a funny finger, clearly getting more exercise than the 'average' LH pinkie, sometimes flying like any other finger but sometimes (unpredictably) completely leaden/earthbound. Which is frustrating when L3's such a crucial finger for flute/whistle ornamentation and neat gracing starts (IMHO) with being able to tap (or open) the hole so quickly you're barely aware of the note. Now, while I'm quite happy to play low whistle with RH middle pads but prefer LH end pads, I'm also aware that my pinkie's potentially faster when playing L2 (my fused finger) with the middle pad. Then, experimenting with my Sweetheart D this morning, I discovered that I could relieve a fair bit of LH tension by doing exactly that and it's not feeling alien the way it does on the whistle (it's the different angles, you see). So I'm seriously thinking of adopting that grip for flute (new tricks for old dogs, eh?) but ever more convinced that we're talking custom G# solutions when neither grip's looking good for my Boehm flute method.

Also thinking we're probably talking relatively small-holed flutes with my pinkie stretched to cover L3, so have taken some crude measurements off my Sweetheart, giving us L1 at <=8mm, L2 at <=9mm and L3 at c.7.5mm with even centres of c.37.5mm. On which note I dunno how much bigger/wider I could go, and would simply have to try before committing there!

Right, I'm really not liking that middle pad ('play-testing') grip! Thought it might be a goer but (in apparently just substituting new problems for old ones) it's basically telling me why I've done it the other way for years... although some good might yet have come of it by letting me shift L2 less drastically to cover more with the first joint than the pad.

Anyway, what's clear regardless of grip is that tighter LH hole spacings would help, especially where combined with an L2 that's closer to L3 than (as seems to be more common?) L1. So I've been talking to Jem about an antique flute with this configuration (handily combined with French-style G#!), think the Copley Delrins also appear to have this spacing (now considering a no-frills Copley Delrin keyless as a play-all-the-time flute as well as 'tester' for potential future order), but would be interested to know of others that meet this 'specification' as standard. So any info on LH hole spacings gratefully received (hole sizes also useful, but thinking the spacing may be the 'key' thing and, no, that's not meant to be a pun!).

Thanks
P

[Peter Duggan]

So (thread revival alert!)... thirteen months, much discussion/experimentation (producing the keyless Delrin special that spawned the Flute for the Undecided) and one personal meeting later, Dave Copley is currently building me (guess what?) a four-keyed flute. But a four-keyed flute like no other, with custom LH hole layout, C nat thumb hole and no LH keys at all (finally ruled out the LH G# altogether to give both Bb and G# to R1) hopefully combining to produce the solution of simple elegance we've both envisaged from the start. Should be gorgeous too, with the lovely Solomon blackwood (so far used by just Dave, Terry McGee, Nagahara and one or two others for flutes?) proving to be the one timber currently capable of tempting me away from the 'safety' of Delrin!

So time to thank Dave for the constant dialogue and two-way flow of ideas that's given us both a project to get excited about, let him get on with it and hope we've got it right!

[Denny]

well, ya know we're gonna want pictures...


ya have to love it when ya find an artist that needs a challenge!

[daiv]

So (thread revival alert!)... thirteen months, much discussion/experimentation (producing the keyless Delrin special that spawned the Flute for the Undecided) and one personal meeting later, Dave Copley is currently building me (guess what?) a four-keyed flute. But a four-keyed flute like no other, with custom LH hole layout, C nat thumb hole and no LH keys at all (finally ruled out the LH G# altogether to give both Bb and G# to R1) hopefully combining to produce the solution of simple elegance we've both envisaged from the start. Should be gorgeous too, with the lovely Solomon blackwood (so far used by just Dave, Terry McGee, Nagahara and one or two others for flutes?) proving to be the one timber currently capable of tempting me away from the 'safety' of Delrin!

So time to thank Dave for the constant dialogue and two-way flow of ideas that's given us both a project to get excited about, let him get on with it and hope we've got it right!

So I was reading the first page or two and thinking to myself that Dave would be the perfect person to talk to about something like this. Glad you found him on your own! Best of luck,

[Peter Duggan]

well, ya know we're gonna want pictures...

And how sorry I am you never got to see them, Denny!

So here (fresh fifteen-month thread revival alert!) is the update I should have had up a year ago after getting the flute in December 2012. But we had a few small problems with the wood of the middle and foot joints and, taking that alongside a week or two's evaluation of the hole positions and keywork, I put it to Dave that we might 'regard the middle joint as a (rather fine!) prototype when the layout is so nearly (but not quite!) brilliant and build a new one with revamped G# and F keys and blocks' with some appropriate (to be agreed) adjustment to the pricing. And Dave was willing, meeting me in the UK for a second time in May 2013 to check the finer points, taking the flute home with him and building the 'Mark 2' which I finally received this Christmas. And here at last (photos first, then description) is the 'flute for life' I was hoping to get...







Notes

One-piece body to accommodate the RH G# key (a solution Dave thought vastly superior to the LH options I'd been considering and for which I thank him!).

LH holes rotated slightly (5 degrees) towards the player (something I discovered through experimentation with my two-piece Delrin keyless bodies to work well for my LH configuration with the big L3 pinkie offset).

Thumb hole brought higher than Dave's standard position (something we got right from the start as being affected by the size of L3 offset).

L3 hole restored to its original size and position along the tube when the 'Mark 1' was spec'd with Dave's closer spacing/smaller hole largely because I was still thinking in terms of a modified L3 G# and forgot I didn't need that adjustment anymore!

'Mark 2' G# key brought as high as we dared where I found the 'Mark 1' (which was rather lower) to respond well to a raised R1 movement but not to the tipping motion off the G hole I'd also really hoped would work. And this is just brilliant, with the key now opening perfectly this way, feelable under the finger when playing the lower notes but never leaking accidentally. No downsides at all apart from the already-anticipated adjustment (with almost any RH G#?) in making F#-to-G slides by sliding the finger towards the foot rather than tipping off the hole (which now produces G#) and even a slight adjustment to the previously perfect Bb key position to accommodate the higher G# having no adverse effect.

'Mark 2' F key beefed up where it goes through the block after I became concerned about the original developing play from the hammering it was getting from my D-to-F and Eb-to-F movements. (NB we'd always had the key as a mirror image of the 'standard' one for reasons of aesthetics and possible physical balance where we'd otherwise have ended up with all four keys to the player side.)

And that's it, folks... this flute is brilliant and I don't know why everyone doesn't have a RH G#! Hopefully get some video made sometime to show all this stuff in operation, but just wanted to get this long-overdue update up first.

So I was reading the first page or two and thinking to myself that Dave would be the perfect person to talk to about something like this. Glad you found him on your own! Best of luck,

Yep, the perfect person when he's been so patient with my musings, generous (I was expecting to pay for the 'Mark 2', but...), full of good ideas, and we've come up with this beautiful flute together. But sure we've also both learned so much about how to do this along the way!