I've read lots of posts where Highland pipers are taking up Uilleann pipes and looking for direction. I am heading in the other direction in this case, having played Uilleann pipes for over 15 years, of now learning Scottish piping.
I have a set of bellows blown Border Pipes being shipped to me next week but have very little experience with any sort of Scottish piping. I do have a practice chanter and have been working away at basic fingering and simple melodies, however I am a complete newb at ornamentation for the "other" chanter.
So...thoughts?
Learning Scottish Pipes after Uilleann Pipes
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CHasR
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Re: Learning Scottish Pipes after Uilleann Pipes
Well, good luck first off! 
As you now know, they're completely different animals in construction technique & approach.
At this point, just starting off as you are; my sugestion would be not to devote any atention to tunes at all. The fingering technique is so precise, exacting and well researched, that one could easily spend a year or more simply learning the language & placing of GHB gracenotes.
But good news is there's a number of fine learning methods out there, McGillivray's Rhythmic Fingering seems to be the current fave. Generally, most of these methods avoid 'pure' tech exercises (as I was once upon a time taught) and incoprporate tunes to learn at each appropriate level.
As you now know, they're completely different animals in construction technique & approach.
At this point, just starting off as you are; my sugestion would be not to devote any atention to tunes at all. The fingering technique is so precise, exacting and well researched, that one could easily spend a year or more simply learning the language & placing of GHB gracenotes.
But good news is there's a number of fine learning methods out there, McGillivray's Rhythmic Fingering seems to be the current fave. Generally, most of these methods avoid 'pure' tech exercises (as I was once upon a time taught) and incoprporate tunes to learn at each appropriate level.
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BigDavy
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Re: Learning Scottish Pipes after Uilleann Pipes
Hi magrobin
If you are moving onto border pipes then The Lowland and Borders Piping Society would be the logical starting point. (Scotland's answer to NPU).
They produce an equivelant of the Heather Clarke book for lowland/border pipes called More Power to Your Elbow. You will find it and other publications here.
Note, you can play border pipes as if they were bellows blown GHB, but there are other styles of play possible on them. eg Matt Seattle's Thomas the Rhymer suite.
David
If you are moving onto border pipes then The Lowland and Borders Piping Society would be the logical starting point. (Scotland's answer to NPU).
They produce an equivelant of the Heather Clarke book for lowland/border pipes called More Power to Your Elbow. You will find it and other publications here.
Note, you can play border pipes as if they were bellows blown GHB, but there are other styles of play possible on them. eg Matt Seattle's Thomas the Rhymer suite.
David
Payday, Piping, Percussion and Poetry- the 4 best Ps
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fiddlerwill
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"The beginner should approach style warily, realizing that it is an expression of self, and should turn resolutely away from all devices that are popularly believed to indicate style — all mannerisms, tricks, adornments. The approach to style is by way of plainness, simplicity, orderliness, sincerity." - Location: Miltown Malbay
Re: Learning Scottish Pipes after Uilleann Pipes
I agree with this;
<<my sugestion would be not to devote any atention to tunes at all. The fingering technique is so precise, exacting and well researched, that one could easily spend a year or more simply learning the language & placing of GHB gracenotes.>>
but this i disagree with;
<<As you now know, they're completely different animals in construction technique & approach.>>
As A GHB player moving to UP I find they are closely related. There are many designs of UP chanter, some can be played half open, off the knee while more modern designs suit all closed /on knee fingering. Yes there are many differences, yet IMO the similarities are striking. Im awaiting pastoral chanters which live between these two ends of the continuum, though there are 2 basic PP chanter designs[that i know of] one with more closed fingering, one with more open fingering.
Playing style; well yes but thats more to do with the constraints of 'tradition' and style. Ossified into 'opposing' camps where 'loose' GHB piping is disdained and on on side and regimented UP styles disdained from the opposing camp. Within the UP world there is a continuum between closed 'tight' styles and open looser styles.
Personally I have little interest in conforming to anyone's rigid ideas of style and I feel that the field is far more open and flex able than is generally assumed . Just my opinion!
<<my sugestion would be not to devote any atention to tunes at all. The fingering technique is so precise, exacting and well researched, that one could easily spend a year or more simply learning the language & placing of GHB gracenotes.>>
but this i disagree with;
<<As you now know, they're completely different animals in construction technique & approach.>>
As A GHB player moving to UP I find they are closely related. There are many designs of UP chanter, some can be played half open, off the knee while more modern designs suit all closed /on knee fingering. Yes there are many differences, yet IMO the similarities are striking. Im awaiting pastoral chanters which live between these two ends of the continuum, though there are 2 basic PP chanter designs[that i know of] one with more closed fingering, one with more open fingering.
Playing style; well yes but thats more to do with the constraints of 'tradition' and style. Ossified into 'opposing' camps where 'loose' GHB piping is disdained and on on side and regimented UP styles disdained from the opposing camp. Within the UP world there is a continuum between closed 'tight' styles and open looser styles.
Personally I have little interest in conforming to anyone's rigid ideas of style and I feel that the field is far more open and flex able than is generally assumed . Just my opinion!
The mind is like a parachute; it only works when it is open.
Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs
Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs
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CHasR
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Re: Learning Scottish Pipes after Uilleann Pipes
good points about loose & rigid.
Also to consider; Borderspipes playing 'style' differs from that of Ghb,
even though there's plently of overlap.
But all that after d throws, birls, leumluaths, etc
There are several "heavy borderpipe hitters" on C&F.
(Borders' Pipe makers, too.)
Also to consider; Borderspipes playing 'style' differs from that of Ghb,
even though there's plently of overlap.
But all that after d throws, birls, leumluaths, etc
There are several "heavy borderpipe hitters" on C&F.
(Borders' Pipe makers, too.)
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fiddlerwill
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"The beginner should approach style warily, realizing that it is an expression of self, and should turn resolutely away from all devices that are popularly believed to indicate style — all mannerisms, tricks, adornments. The approach to style is by way of plainness, simplicity, orderliness, sincerity." - Location: Miltown Malbay
Re: Learning Scottish Pipes after Uilleann Pipes
cheers CHasR, Id be interested in hearing a bit more border piping, my listening is between GHB and UP with a little NSP. Got any good recommendations? you tube links?
The mind is like a parachute; it only works when it is open.
Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs
Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs
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pancelticpiper
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These days many discussions are migrating to Facebook but I prefer the online chat forum format. - Location: WV to the OC
Re: Learning Scottish Pipes after Uilleann Pipes
This is a very interesting topic, taking up the Scottish pipes after years of uilleann piping.
I myself learned the GHB first and over the last 35 years I've helped a large number of GHB players with their first steps into uilleann piping. This is the first time I can recall somebody going the other direction!
The question boils down to "what sort of Scottish piping?"
Because any sax player can pick up the GHB and transfer his sax fingerings and style to the chanter, and likewise any uilleann piper can pick up the GHB and transfer his uilleann fingerings and ornamentation and style to the the Scottish Highland chanter.
If what you mean, though, is to learn the Great Highland Bagpipe in that instrument's own native traditional style, it's an entirely different matter.
The little speech I've made over the years to so many GHB players attempting to learn the uilleann pipes holds true: Nearly everything is different. The finger posture, the way the fingers are lifted, the approach to bag pressure, the fingerings, the ornaments, the style of music, the repertoire, the attitude towards written music, the style of learning, and so forth.
The best way, by far, to learn all of this is to get together with a good GHB teacher. The GHB is taught more or less the same way the world over with a fairly uniform pedagogy. Unlike the uilleann pipes, with the Highland Pipes there's a single "right" way to do nearly everything.
I myself learned the GHB first and over the last 35 years I've helped a large number of GHB players with their first steps into uilleann piping. This is the first time I can recall somebody going the other direction!
The question boils down to "what sort of Scottish piping?"
Because any sax player can pick up the GHB and transfer his sax fingerings and style to the chanter, and likewise any uilleann piper can pick up the GHB and transfer his uilleann fingerings and ornamentation and style to the the Scottish Highland chanter.
If what you mean, though, is to learn the Great Highland Bagpipe in that instrument's own native traditional style, it's an entirely different matter.
The little speech I've made over the years to so many GHB players attempting to learn the uilleann pipes holds true: Nearly everything is different. The finger posture, the way the fingers are lifted, the approach to bag pressure, the fingerings, the ornaments, the style of music, the repertoire, the attitude towards written music, the style of learning, and so forth.
The best way, by far, to learn all of this is to get together with a good GHB teacher. The GHB is taught more or less the same way the world over with a fairly uniform pedagogy. Unlike the uilleann pipes, with the Highland Pipes there's a single "right" way to do nearly everything.
Richard Cook
c1980 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle
c1980 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle
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AaronMalcomb
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Re: Learning Scottish Pipes after Uilleann Pipes
If you aren't after competition-style GHB playing, you can get by with mostly cuts and taps a.k.a. gracenotes and strikes. The aforementioned "More Power to Your Elbow" gives a goes over the essential Scottish embellishments. If you want to master them, cross-reference those embellishments to the exercises in Rhythmic Fingerwork that Chas mentioned. The birl is most idiomatic thing that you'll want to master and it takes lots of repetition but it sounds great.
I've only tried uilleann pipes a few times so can't say how forgiving they are to mis-fingering but border pipes are very sensitive to it, especially crossing noises. To use uilleann slang, you have the closed fingering kind and the open fingering kind. The closed fingering kind just sound sloppy and cluttered since you can't close the chanter on the knee. The open fingering kind will give you squeals and bad intonation. To get that staccato, closed fingering sound, you'll want to learn grips and throws.
For pressure, border pipes are likely to be a little higher than uilleann pipes-- like you are always playing second octave B.
I've only tried uilleann pipes a few times so can't say how forgiving they are to mis-fingering but border pipes are very sensitive to it, especially crossing noises. To use uilleann slang, you have the closed fingering kind and the open fingering kind. The closed fingering kind just sound sloppy and cluttered since you can't close the chanter on the knee. The open fingering kind will give you squeals and bad intonation. To get that staccato, closed fingering sound, you'll want to learn grips and throws.
For pressure, border pipes are likely to be a little higher than uilleann pipes-- like you are always playing second octave B.
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CHasR
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Re: Learning Scottish Pipes after Uilleann Pipes
Im sorry fiddlerwillfiddlerwill wrote:cheers CHasR, Id be interested in hearing a bit more border piping, my listening is between GHB and UP with a little NSP. Got any good recommendations? you tube links?
...having just returned from saturn, this completely slipped my mind. My apologies!So
if you havent done so already:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... +more&aq=f
hope that works! Search youtube for Border pipes, Matt Seattle, Fred Morrison, Ross Ainslie, Chris Ormston, Jon Swayne, Fin Moore, al these platyers. "Nate Prentice" has a playlist.
o you are a sly one pancelticpancelticpiper wrote: Because any sax player can pick up the GHB and transfer his sax fingerings and style to the chanter, and likewise any uilleann piper can pick up the GHB and transfer his uilleann fingerings and ornamentation and style to the the Scottish Highland chanter.
good observation there-
fiddlerwill
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"The beginner should approach style warily, realizing that it is an expression of self, and should turn resolutely away from all devices that are popularly believed to indicate style — all mannerisms, tricks, adornments. The approach to style is by way of plainness, simplicity, orderliness, sincerity." - Location: Miltown Malbay
Re: Learning Scottish Pipes after Uilleann Pipes
Thanks. Im familiar with Fred Morrison, Jon Swayne and Fin Moore but the other names you mention I will check out. Im not too keen on wading through you tube beginners so your recommendations are appreciated!
The mind is like a parachute; it only works when it is open.
Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs
Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs
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magroibin
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Re: Learning Scottish Pipes after Uilleann Pipes
My new (to me) MacHarg border pipes just arrived!!!
The set was sold "as is" so the reeds do need work. Luckily I make many of my own UP reeds so getting the drone reeds working is something I'm confident with doing...although I am inclined to check out some Ezee drone reeds at first opportunity.
Some of the chanter reeds are serviceable, so at least I can familiarize myself with this style chanter. So far so good with trying to play really, and I'm thinking I will enjoy learning Scottish style piping.
Give me a few days to get the basic reed needs met and I will get around to addressing the many good suggestions made so far.
Thanks everyone!
Paul
The set was sold "as is" so the reeds do need work. Luckily I make many of my own UP reeds so getting the drone reeds working is something I'm confident with doing...although I am inclined to check out some Ezee drone reeds at first opportunity.
Some of the chanter reeds are serviceable, so at least I can familiarize myself with this style chanter. So far so good with trying to play really, and I'm thinking I will enjoy learning Scottish style piping.
Give me a few days to get the basic reed needs met and I will get around to addressing the many good suggestions made so far.
Thanks everyone!
Paul
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fiddlerwill
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"The beginner should approach style warily, realizing that it is an expression of self, and should turn resolutely away from all devices that are popularly believed to indicate style — all mannerisms, tricks, adornments. The approach to style is by way of plainness, simplicity, orderliness, sincerity." - Location: Miltown Malbay
Re: Learning Scottish Pipes after Uilleann Pipes
Yay! congrats, I play a macharg with my 7/8th GHB , Yours in A440? Bet you will have a great time. There some cracking new tunes you can add to your repertoire, like Tullochurum , the reel of Tuloch, Tail Toddle, Miss Maclouds obviously...
And lots of trad Irish tunes can well be played on that chanter, like Langsterns pony. Clare Jig, Matt Molloys reel I do a setting of Farewell to Erin, The high reel, I could go on! ...
Go for the Birl and the grip and the GDE as your go to ornaments IMO Your gonna love them!
And lots of trad Irish tunes can well be played on that chanter, like Langsterns pony. Clare Jig, Matt Molloys reel I do a setting of Farewell to Erin, The high reel, I could go on! ...
Go for the Birl and the grip and the GDE as your go to ornaments IMO Your gonna love them!
The mind is like a parachute; it only works when it is open.
Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs
Heres a few tunes round a table, first three sets;
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/werty
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs-willie
http://soundcloud.com/fiddlerwill/jigs
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magroibin
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Re: Learning Scottish Pipes after Uilleann Pipes
O.K....never mind a few days for getting the reeds, more like a several months...
I finally got my chanters back with new reeds and only now am I getting around to playing around with them. I'm also discovering the joys of taped holes to bring things in tune as I'm not yet ready to go tweaking reeds as I am able to do for Uilleann pipes.
Working the bellows is no problem but I do find that working the bag takes a different approach with respect to pressure, as AaronMalcomb implied. Any tips on this our there on how to deal with this? Just get used to it? I am planning on making my own drone reeds asap which might help in this regard.
I picked up "Partner's in Crime" by Ross Ainslie and Jarlath Henderson. (A brilliant CD if you don't have it yet!!) The interplay of UP and BP is great, but it also gives me a basis of comparison between the two pipes that I find helpful.
That's it for now...back to practicing.
Paul
I finally got my chanters back with new reeds and only now am I getting around to playing around with them. I'm also discovering the joys of taped holes to bring things in tune as I'm not yet ready to go tweaking reeds as I am able to do for Uilleann pipes.
Working the bellows is no problem but I do find that working the bag takes a different approach with respect to pressure, as AaronMalcomb implied. Any tips on this our there on how to deal with this? Just get used to it? I am planning on making my own drone reeds asap which might help in this regard.
I picked up "Partner's in Crime" by Ross Ainslie and Jarlath Henderson. (A brilliant CD if you don't have it yet!!) The interplay of UP and BP is great, but it also gives me a basis of comparison between the two pipes that I find helpful.
That's it for now...back to practicing.
Paul
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oleorezinator
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Re: Learning Scottish Pipes after Uilleann Pipes
Or you can tread where very few have
and follow the path of a pipe band from Kerry
earlier in the last century. Give Sean Folsom
a shout for the particulars as he first told me the story.
He'll have more details than I can remember.
One more thing. Congraulations to Sean on the birth of
his 1st Grandchild! Yipee!
and follow the path of a pipe band from Kerry
earlier in the last century. Give Sean Folsom
a shout for the particulars as he first told me the story.
He'll have more details than I can remember.
One more thing. Congraulations to Sean on the birth of
his 1st Grandchild! Yipee!
Information is not knowledge.
Knowledge is not wisdom.
Wisdom is not truth.
Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love.
Love is not music. Music is the best.
- Frank Zappa
Knowledge is not wisdom.
Wisdom is not truth.
Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love.
Love is not music. Music is the best.
- Frank Zappa
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osage59
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Re: Learning Scottish Pipes after Uilleann Pipes
What a cool thread...
I may have to get that practice chanter one of these days.
I may have to get that practice chanter one of these days.