I am not holding my violin right

[Duben]

I seem to have more problems trying to pick up violin again than I did ever starting it in the first place. I really need a teacher, to show me what I am doing wrong in person. Since I can't afford a single lesson at the moment, I'm asking for any ideas of where I'm going wrong on my own:

I'm constantly catching myself with a collapsed wrist, I relax as soon as I notice, but this is happening almost every other note, every other second.

My hand aches after 5 minutes of playing, particularly in the thumb and left side of my wrist, I am putting a great deal of pressure on the left side of the violin neck with my thumb. I'm using a shoulder rest but my body doesn't seem to want to hold it up, I'm accidently relying on my left hand to hold the neck up at the same time I am trying to use it to to stop the strings.

I can't seem to hold attention, if I relax my wrist, I focus on that, and my shoulder slips. If I adjust my shoulder to hold the violin up, my fingers take the weight and press down on the fingerboard, moving the body of the violin. I have great difficulty with attention in general, and restarting an instrument after years of not playing anything, I think I'm too old, or I am just out of my league here.

I'm in a really frustrating cycle, practice is not practice, it's me adjusting all the bad posture I'm using, and falling out of it once I want to concentrate on another problem. I know what I'm doing wrong, but I can't seem to stop doing it. So, what I am looking for here is any practical advice, or practice ideas for tackling these problems one at a time, I just don't know where to start!

[Protean]

If you find that the shoulder rest and chin rest are not sufficient to keep your violin comfortably aloft, perhaps you need to adjust the shoulder rest and/or think about getting a new shoulder rest/chin rest. I just did this today, myself.

I've been playing with a hard, plastic chin rest and your standard, average Kun shoulder rest. As a result, I found playing rather uncomfortable due to the hard plastic up against my jaw and the shoulder rest not being high enough/adjustable enough to keep me from having to hunch over to keep the violin aloft. I bought a new chin rest, a chin rest pad, and a new shoulder rest and now I can actually play with a straight back and neck and the violin is more straight out in front of me than before, to boot.

Just a thought, don't know if it'll really help your problem or not, but it couldn't hurt, right?

[Duben]

My chinrest is plastic, also, but I haven't ever found any chinrest particularly comfortable or fitting to my jaw. I have your average Kun shoulder rest as well, it pivets to-and-fro, and you can adjust the rubber on the screw-ins, but it really doesn't allow for a whole lot of adjustability.

I'm toying around with the Kun as we speak. I can hold it steady and straight, with just my jaw and shoulder. Things go wrong when I arc my fingers to press down on a string. My hand does not want to go there, it is very uncomfortable, straining and 'unnatural.' And god, I don't know why I did not mention that I own a 3/4 size violin in the first place, my hands are pretty big. But, I encounter this exact same problem when trying to play on a 4/4. My wrist will not twist right to allow my fingers to reach notes closest to the nut.

Editing: I'm sorry if I am confusing, I'm working out exactly where I am going wrong, and it's really something someone needs to see to help me out with. Would a picture of the position my hand is in help at all?



My hand may be in an incorrect position, but I am trying to show you the limits of 'reaching' left with my fingers. This is as far as they want to go when my thumb is not gripping the neck. If I pull my hand back any further, my knuckles hit the pegs. Picture is me holding the camera above myself.

[dolphinjon]

I doubt that I can describe it well, but the problem is that your hand needs to "pivot" in. The neck should not be supported in the crook between your thumb and index finger. The only part of my thumb that touches the neck is the pad. Here's a couple of links showing playing position. The first is from your angle http://marsupialmumbles.blogspot.com/20 ... thumb.html

Here's the other one http://andrewfilmer.wordpress.com/bangk ... n-posture/. They're not the greatest, but maybe they'll help.

[MTGuru]

Maybe my own experience with shoulder rests might also be instructive, along the lines that Protean describes.

I have a long neck and a skinny, bony shoulder and jawline with very little "padding". At first I tried Resonans, Kun, Playonair, sponges and pads. And ended up thinking I was condemned forever to crinking my head down to support the instrument, and not very well at that. I couldn't really hold it hands-free for more than a few seconds without real discomfort.

Finally it occurred to me that all those rests are simply too short for me. So I got a Wolf Secondo rest, and cranked the pins way up to around 2+ inches height from the pad surface to the support clamps. And voilà! Now I could jog down the street without dropping the instrument, hands free. It really was a matter of finding the right support to give the hand the freedom to move without having to support the neck. I also replaced the chin rest with a larger over the tailpiece model which is much more comfortable and flexible for my bony chin.

So don't discount the possibility that your fiddle's current setup is just not suited to your anatomy. Get thee to a competent violin luthier, and have them fit you for the right chin and shoulder rest hardware. You might find it makes all the difference.

[Protean]

Yeah, the Wolf is what I picked up, too. Worth every bloody penny. Tonight was amazing. Normally I get a terrible pain in my spine on prolonged playing (concerts are a real b**ch!), but tonight, after 2 straight hours of practice, nada. I felt great, no worse than when I'd first started practice. Last night, that was not the case. It's amazing the difference the shoulder rest and such have made. But that doesn't seem to be your problem. I'd check out the links that dolphinjon sent. Those will likely point you in the right direction.

[awildman]

Perhaps the neck of the fiddle needs to move to the left? I can't tell where your body is from the pic. Try to have the fiddle pointing left at 45 degrees or so from your centerline. And I can almost say for a certainty that your left elbow needs to come right.

It would be much more helpful if you could have somebody else take the picture of you playing while you are experiencing these problems.

[Tweeto]

I use an extra-tall bracket for my Kun. It costs about $7, I think. It's really a shame that a company which markets a $40 piece plastic won't include this along with it.

[Martin Milner]

Sorry to hear you're having such problems Duben.

I returned to the fiddle about six years ago after a 20-something year break, and it took several adjustments before I found a comfortable set-up. Part of the reason for giving up in the first place was that I never felt comfortable playing. The sponge I was given for a shoulder rest didn't stop the fiddle from constantly grating and scraping against my collarbone.

Here's my experience for what it's worth.

I'm using a shoulder rest but my body doesn't seem to want to hold it up.

The Shoulder rest is a rest, and you shouldn't be hunching up your shoulder underneath it to get it in the right place. The fiddle should be able to balance on the rest with your chin on the chinrest and no left hand support at all.

The rest acts as the fulcrum in a class 1 lever as shown here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/teachers/a ... levers.gif

The violin is the load, the shoulder rest is the fulcrum, and the weight of yor head provides the effort. Note, just the weight - you shouldn't need to grip down with your chin, that will just lead to neck ache.

So the shoulder rest is very important, and like MKGuru, I found several makes too short for my neck, especially the Playonair which requires you to have no neck at all.

The chinrest is the next thing; I was unaware as a child that there was a choice, but if you look online at Flesch and Guarnerius rests, you may find that the type you have just doesn't work for you. I use a Flesch chinrest which places the chin centrally over the tailpiece, which I find provides the most natural and comfortable angle for bowing, and balances the fiddle better.

I am putting a great deal of pressure on the left side of the violin neck with my thumb.

I'm accidently relying on my left hand to hold the neck up at the same time I am trying to use it to to stop the strings.

My hand aches after 5 minutes of playing, particularly in the thumb and left side of my wrist.

Cause and effect. Once you've got the shoulder and chin support correct, you won't need to use the left wrist and thumb to support the neck, and this should help you tackle your collapsing wrist. Never grip with the left thumb - that'll always lead to pain.

Your picture shows your palm facing towards you, when it should be facing the neck of the violin (a ninety degree clockwise twist). I'm not sure how you play anything with the palm facing towards you, as this puts all your fingers away from the fingerboard.

You're showing your fingers flattened out, when they should be arched naturally over the fingerboard, ready to drop down onto the strings. Drop down, not grip down, there should be very little pressure on the string, just enough to stop it cleanly and no more. A common error is to grip down like the violin is trying to escape, which will lead to left wrist pain.

You mention a 3/4 size fiddle - this isn't the instrument you're actually playing on, is it? Unless you're only 5' tall or have very short arms, this in itself will cause problems, and may explain why your left hand is in such an odd position in the picture. You should be playing on a full adult size fiddle from about age 13 onwards. If a child can put the fiddle under their chin and their left palm can cup the scroll, the fiddle is not too big, but you don't want to go on playing an undersized fiddle any longer than necessary for growth.

[Tim2723]

I wondered the same thing when I read your first post, and now that you've said it's a 3/4 violin, I think Martin might be spot on.

You haven't been specific about the time lag, but is the 3/4 an instrument you played as a child, set aside for years, and are now taking up as an adult? If so, the fiddle hasn't changed, but you have, and dramatically so. Even if you're only in your late teens, a 3/4 may be just too small for your body type.

EDIT: Oops, never mind. I see that you also have the problem with a 4/4.

[izzarina]

Your left hand is really in an odd position. Not only will it bring on pain (as you have found out), it will also make it very difficult to play with the 4th finger (although, I would tend to think playing with the 3rd might be difficult for you at this point). I think someone said, your hand should be perpendicular to the finger board, and this is right. It's really an unnatural position, so it takes a bit of work and practise to get it where it needs to be. Your fingers need to be curved...you don't want to push down onto the strings like you would a guitar. You don't need that much effort, and it affects the sound when you press too hard. So, it's more the tips of the fingers you want on the strings. Also, your thumb shouldn't be poking up that high. Just the tip of it should be peeking up over the side of the fingerboard (my teacher draws a little sun on the tip of the thumb, and you're supposed to make it look like it's rising...not that it's noontime), and should be across from your first finger.

I think there might be some videos on YouTube that could help you with this. It might be worth your while to look into it, because you'll be able to at least see how to hold the violin.

[Duben]

-Dolphinjon, thank you for the links, they were very helpful-

That was the best out of about 10 or so pictures I tried to take, I don't doubt it was terrible, so is my camera. I know what comfortable and steady are, if these are what I'm looking for when I hold my violin up, I have it. My violin is tilted to the right(degrees, I have no clue, but it feels right) when I hold it up comfortably with the rest, as it should be?

Your picture shows your palm facing towards you, when it should be facing the neck of the violin (a ninety degree clockwise twist). I'm not sure how you play anything with the palm facing towards you, as this puts all your fingers away from the fingerboard.

My palm, facing me, is the extent that my left wrist will turn left, or twist. It literally won't move in that direction whatsoever, my right hand will not turn 90 degrees either.


Illustrating what happens when I try and twist my wrist, it does not move, my upperpalm is what does.


This is as far as I can take my fingers, arched improperly or no, without serious strain. Which I am trying to find ways around.

You are right, I play on a 3/4 size, as a full grown adult.
Can anyone here comfortably arch their fingers, and rotate their wrist under a 3/4 violin? Or can all adults not do this? If that is the issue, I have overlooked it, but it this is starting to feel more like my wrist and hand are not moving like they should be.

I played in a school orchestra, dropped it for some years, and have been picking it back up for some time over the last 10 years, inbetween long periods of time where I become frustrated. Arching my fingers and rotating my wrist is a problem I've always had, however, I would adapt in my own ways, by over stretching, etc., but I want to avoid doing that now.

izzarina- yes, my 3rd finger has trouble resting next to my second without a small space gap, and as for my 4th, it can barely reach any of the strings from this position.

Well, I provided two more pictures, they were taking from an even angle as I could. I didn't respond to, but I read and took in everyones post. I want to stress that in every photo I've taken, it's nearly impossible for my palm to be perpendicular to the fingerboard any more than it already is in the holding position. I remember one violin teacher, specifically, becoming irritabily frustrated with me, constantly grabbing my ring finger and putting it on the string, asking me why I could not do this right myself, and then my finger would slip a few centemeters.

Anyway, with all this, please, anyone, post your thoughts. This is a big help.

edit: Since this is becoming such a problem for me, are there alternative positions for holding the fiddle? I know there are, but are there any definitive list or site that shows them? I'm willing to try anything, really.

[izzarina]

I don't know if this will help, but here are a few pictures of how I hold my violin.

Here is the side view, with 4 fingers down on the E string. See how my wrist is positioned, and how my fingers aren't flattened, but more curved over the strings?



Here is the view down the fingerboard, with 3 fingers down on the A string. You can see the positioning of the thumb here.



Last, all 4 fingers down on the G. When you have the wrist positioned correctly (and again, this isn't something that is natural, so it does take practise), you should be able to get all 4 fingers down on the G, even if you have very small hands like I do.



I do think that much of your problem is the size of the instrument. My daughter has a 1/4 sized and there is no way I'd even be able to come close to holding it the way I should. A 3/4 would be easier, but it's still way too small to hold correctly. Do you possibly know someone that has a full sized violin that you can just try out?

[Tweeto]

This isn't perfect but it's very close, compared to what I see in Duben's photos. I tried to get as accurate as possible with the location of the camera lens, to replicate what I saw at the time.

Having improved my hand position since I shot this photo, my hand now looks a little more cupped, and I can see more space under the crook of my thumb.

[StevieJ]

Lots of good points here but I think it's worth pointing out that there are many ways to do almost anything on a musical instrument and, esp. in the world of fiddling, the most important thing to do is find out what works for you rather than asking to be told what you should be doing.

For example, on the subject of chin and shoulder rests... the idea that you have to be able to support the fiddle entirely with the chin and shoulder and with no help from the left hand is a very modern notion. The purpose is to let you zip up and down the fingerboard in and out of higher positions without having to support the violin.

Two points: first, if you're playing fiddle, you won't need to zip in and out of higher positions very much, if at all, and certainly not with anything like the frequency required by modern classical music.

Second: I know of at least one musician of the baroque school (Sigiswald Kuijken) who, based on his study of historical treatises, has developed a technique where not only does he not use a shoulder rest, but his chin is not in contact with the instrument at all. In case you might wonder whether this affects his ability to play in positions, listen to his recordings of the Bach sonatas and partitas (my favourite).

When I played violin as a child, I had a shoulder rest apparently endorsed by Yehudi Menuhin, unless the maker was using his name without permission. But later I was amused to read in a book by Menuhin that he played without a shoulder rest. He wrote, IIRC, that you should be able to hold the fiddle with the chinrest - but with your neck bent, with the fiddle hanging down with the head pointing to the ground. Then lightly move it into position with your left hand.

The key to both the above approaches, I would say, is a very light touch and total relaxation of all the muscles.

With regard to your left hand position - there are numerous great fiddle players around with very "incorrect" hand positions (thumbs sticking way up, index fingers pointing skywards when not actually stopping a string, collapsed wrists, and so on). Don't be afraid of being incorrect if you find something that works.

Having said that, I would say that you appear to have a notion that the wrist should be bent back to an exaggerated degree. When I taught fiddle I used to recommend that the back of the hand form a continuation of the line of your forearm, which was my position. Close to izzarina's photo, but a little less bent.

As for playing on a smaller violin, I wouldn't worry about it. Very big men like Sean Keane and Danny Meehan play on standard violins that look more like quarter-size fiddles in their hands. Brilliantly, in both cases, of course.

Anyway, good luck. If you're starting or resuming at a mature age, you can expect your body to make it difficult for you. Don't overdo it - and may you not join the ranks of "violin amputees" such as me and quite a few others I know.