DADGAD on 12 String Guitar

bradhurley · Post by **bradhurley** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:46 pm

I've never owned anything but 12-strings and have played quite a bit in DADGAD over the years. I did notice intonation problems up the neck on my old Guild, but the 12 I play now was made by Nick Appolonio (the guy who designed and built all the guitars for Gordon Bok) and has a compensated bridge; I put that guitar in DADGAD for a while and it sounded great, even high up on the neck.

Bok uses custom strings on his 12s (my guitar is a Bok model, but not strung with the extra-heavy custom "fire tower cables" that Bok uses) and he tunes it all the way down to Bb. I keep mine a couple of steps below concert pitch and can tune to "relative DADGAD" (with my lowest note being C and the others relative to that) without too much slackness...I guess how your 12 fares with DADGAD depends on both the guitar and the weight of the strings.

Gerry O'Beirne uses open tunings (several of them) on his 12-string, although I don't think DADGAD is among them. Still, he's worth listening to to hear some great 12-string playing in open tunings. His playing of The Princess Royal on Randal Bays's "The Salmon's Leap" CD is magnificent.

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:57 pm

Loren wrote:
I actually almost bought a used 12 string earlier this week, because I've been wanting one for years. Unfortunately, upon seeing the guitar in person, I had to pass as the top had bellied significantly, and the guy wouldn't budge on the price. If he'd been willing to go down a bit I'd have bought it and then installed a Bridge doctor.

Isn't that infuriating? It seems to be a disease specific to music—instruments and vinyl records—that people who own something potentially valuable simply assume that their baby is worth what the price guide says is top dollar for items of that kind. To a lot of dealers, every record is 'mint', even though hardly any records that are secondhand are any better than 'good' which would make them worth about half a mint copy.

I'm sick of conversations like:
Me: $5,000 for this?
Him: It's a '62 Strat
Me: But look, the neck has a warp like a velodrome corner.
Him: It's a '62 Strat
Me: Hey, the bridge just fell off.
Him: It's a '62 Strat.

I've tried to explain to record dealers that records with scuff marks around the hole can't be 'mint' but to no avail. I quickly realised that they use the terminology of grading and the price guides only to give to suckers the appearance of integrity. They aren't interested in the opinions of people who know how to grade.

I wonder if this happens in other areas. I can't imagine people paying top dollar for obviously chipped china dinner services or vintage cars that are rusted up and falling apart.

Wormdiet · Post by **Wormdiet** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:43 am

I had a Rickenbacker 12-string electric for around a year. I think I tried dropped D once. .. . talk about an absolutely HUGE sound. It was awesome.

I sold it because I never played it with other people. The proceeds are dedicated to a new completely oddball flute.

But man it was a nice guitar.

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:54 am

I'm with you wombat: If you have a '59 Les Paul that's been run over by a truck, go right ahead and offer it for sale for 5 grand and no one bat an eye, bizarre.

With the guitar I looked at, the guy told me ahead of time it was in excellent condition, with NO issues. Then he shows up and I take one look and WHOA!! serious top/bridge belly. Okay, the street price for this guitar is under $500 brand new, with a hard case. However this one is 5-6years old, appears to have always been strung up to pitch, does not include the case, needs new strings badly (so I really can't get the best idea of how it's going to sound), and is missing one bridge pin.

Now, the guy was originally asking $350. (before I even saw the guitar), way to much. I offered him $250. cash and specified that this would only be "if the guitar was in excellent condition with NO serious issues", to which he replies "the guitar is essentially mint, no issues what so ever"

Well, in the end, I looked at the guitar, played it a little and decided that the action was still okay, even with the top having bellied quite a bit, and I'd be willing to take a chance on it if he'd drop another $50. on the price. I thought that was quite fair, all things considered, but he wouldn't have it, saying I was basically trying to steal it from him, sheesh, whatever.

Rant mode off,

Loren

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:41 am

The rant is entirely justified, Loren. That guitar you were looking at is a workhorse. Nobody buys them to hang on the wall. So to be worth even half the new price it had better be in full working order and it had better not show signs of impending trouble.

My 12 string is a K. Yairi from about 1970. It has a beautiful tone that you can only get from a well-made guitar that has aged well. Back then, Yairi wasn't providing really adequate bracing so there was always a danger of sound box collapse. I paid about half what you would expect to pay for it in perfect condition and hoped my luthier could keep it together. I tuned it down a whole step anyway. Despite the signs of problems, my luthier got body and neck problems sorted out, the action playable right up the neck and the tuning back to standard.

The dealer who sold it to me is an excellent guitarist who knows that nobody buys a guitar like this without wanting it to be fully playable and being aware of the risk. I still got lucky; let's face it, if the body caved in it would not have been worth anything.

And I still don't get it. Try selling a book for full price with underliner all through it. Or secondhand pants with holes in the knees. That's pretty much the kind of deal that dork was expecting you to accept. I can only imagine he had no idea about the intricacies of guitar construction; after all, you were always going to notice the damage when you inspected it.

Darwin · Post by **Darwin** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:50 pm

Wombat wrote:Or secondhand pants with holes in the knees.

Trust me Womb (may I call you Womb?), you're livin' in the past with this one. My granddaughter buys new ones with holes in the knees.

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:54 am

Darwin wrote: .... may I call you Womb?....

Only if you can live with a new thread entitled 'Womb is not for everyone.'

LeeMarsh · Post by **LeeMarsh** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:16 pm

I've been playing my Goya 12 string since I got it new in 1971. In the mid 90's, I finally upgraded the machines to Grovers from the original style open gear machines that had broken three times. The first winter I owned it I brought it in from Pittsburgh snowy day. The top layer of finish shattered. Goya had put on several layers of finish so it didn't effect the sound or durability. I left it be; it's a constant reminder of my foolishness.

When I upgrades the machines, The bridge had started to pull away so I had if re-secured. I should have mentioned to the luther that I had gone from the recommended medium strings to light guage strings so he would have repositioned it a little. As a result, it plays a little share up the neck across all 6 courses. I usually play in open position so I haven't gotten around to having it fixed.

It plays great in first position and I've tried the drop-D for good effect. I've been thinking about DADGAD, but I've been playing regular tuning so long that I expect it will take a while for my fingers to get around the changes. I've gotten to the point where my fingers go to regular tunning chords on auto-pilot.

I hope to get the bridge adjusted in a couple of months, (my wife is currently un-employed which put a pinch on the budget for now). Once that's done I will experiment with DADGAD.

I occasionally play with another guitarist in session. He tends to play standard chords up the neck, so I compensate by either finger picking or playing on the lower 4 courses of strings on the accented beats of the rythmn. This provides a nice variation on the accompanyment. (better if I was a better player, but okay with my amatuer skills).

Some of the DADGAD playing I've seen on 6 strings often deadens a string or two. I'm thinking with my 12, this would give me a larger range of options since even if I only use 4 courses it still 8 strings generating the sound. Has anyone had any experience with this. I'm the only 12 string player in my area and have little lead to follow.

PJ · Post by PJ » Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:17 am

LeeMarsh wrote:I'm thinking with my 12, this would give me a larger range of options since even if I only use 4 courses it still 8 strings generating the sound. Has anyone had any experience with this.

My limited experience of playing 12 string DADGAD taught me that playing all 6 courses all of the time is not great. For instance, on my 6 sting Ovation, I frequently play a D, Em, F#m, G, A progression leaving the 1st and 2nd strings open. This gives a nice subtle D drone. With the 12 string, I found that leaving these courses open was too much - the drone effect drowned out the rest of the notes.

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:21 am

PJ wrote:
LeeMarsh wrote:I'm thinking with my 12, this would give me a larger range of options since even if I only use 4 courses it still 8 strings generating the sound. Has anyone had any experience with this.
My limited experience of playing 12 string DADGAD taught me that playing all 6 courses all of the time is not great. For instance, on my 6 sting Ovation, I frequently play a D, Em, F#m, G, A progression leaving the 1st and 2nd strings open. This gives a nice subtle D drone. With the 12 string, I found that leaving these courses open was too much - the drone effect drowned out the rest of the notes.

I agree PJ. (Thanks for reminding me; I meant to comment on this passage too.) One solution that might work well would be to string the top four courses in unisons and leave only a single string on bottom D and A string. That would banish intonation problems too.

There are two related reasons I've had for resisting this tuning on guitar and leaving the chorus effect for mandolin and bouzouki where the tuning in fifths makes for a more spacious open sound on full chords. Apart from being able to get lots of nice sympathetic resonance from unplayed and unmuted strings in DADGAD, I think it has two big advantages over drop D and standard tuning. One is that it is easy to play in octaves all over the instrument, getting on melody one effect of 12 string guitar when you want it, but not being restricted to it. The other is that you can also play melody in unisons very easily on adjacent high G and A strings either on its own or while droning on a lower string. Now, I suspect that these effects would be overpowering on a twelve string and also unnecessary since you can get them just by plucking one course at a time. So two reasons for preferring DADGAD drop out of the picture.

Edited to add: I should say that playing riffs in octaves in open tuning playing blues on a twelve string guitar can sound awesome, especially when playing with a slide. You have the same ease of fingering you get with DADGAD. But I prefer delicate guitar playing in ITM to the drive I look for playing blues.

PJ · Post by PJ » Wed Feb 15, 2006 12:41 pm

Has anyone ever tried stringing a 12-string with 2 sets of regular strings. In other words, instead of :

EE' AA' DD' G'G'' B'B' E''E'' ( or the DADGAD equivalent)

It would be :

EE AA DD GG B'B' E'E'

My thoughts are that it would give a great bass sound, but my worry is that it would be too much strain on the neck and might warp it.

bradhurley · Post by **bradhurley** » Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:01 pm

PJ wrote:Has anyone ever tried stringing a 12-string with 2 sets of regular strings. ...
My thoughts are that it would give a great bass sound, but my worry is that it would be too much strain on the neck and might warp it.

That sounds a little bit like the "blarge" that Donal Lunny used to play...a sort of jumbo bass bouzouki that was strung with heavy strings. I do think I remember hearing a rumour that the thing imploded one day.

I would think, however, that with a 12-string you could string it up like that, tune it down a few steps to take some of the strain off the neck, and capo up as necessary.

Wormdiet · Post by **Wormdiet** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:34 am

bradhurley wrote:
PJ wrote:Has anyone ever tried stringing a 12-string with 2 sets of regular strings. ...
My thoughts are that it would give a great bass sound, but my worry is that it would be too much strain on the neck and might warp it.
That sounds a little bit like the "blarge" that Donal Lunny used to play...a sort of jumbo bass bouzouki that was strung with heavy strings. I do think I remember hearing a rumour that the thing imploded one day.

I would think, however, that with a 12-string you could string it up like that, tune it down a few steps to take some of the strain off the neck, and capo up as necessary.

And to do it right you'd need to change the nut and probably the bridge.

PJ · Post by PJ » Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:23 am

Well, I finally got around to buying a 12-string. So I've put my money where my mouth is. I'll tune it to DADGAD, practice a little and post a tune or two to Clips and Snips so you can all have a listen and decide for yourselves.

meemtp · Post by **meemtp** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:02 am

Wombat wrote:
meemtp wrote:A friend of mine took the 6th course of strings off of his Martin 12 string and turned it into a "Guittern". It sounded pretty neat, but not as nice and full as a true Cittern.
I imagine your friend tuned in fourths rather than fifths. I would, if I tried that trick. That would affect the sound a lot.

Actually, what he did was modify the string spacing with a new nut, removed the 2 tuners from the headstock, and tuned it it DGDAD just like a regular cittern with unison courses.