DADGAD on 12 String Guitar

[Wombat]

Has anybody tried DADGAD tuning on a 12 string guitar? If so, how did it work out?

I can think of a couple of reasons not to use it but I thought I'd like to get your opinions before mentioning them.

[Darwin]

I haven't, but I'd think that if your lower octave courses are tuned in octaves it might get a bit jingle-jangley, what with several of the higher notes being duplicated.

I've only ever owned one 12-string (a small-bodied Gibson, which I sold in 1979), but I do recall that getting everything in exact tune--including fretted notes matching open strings--was quite difficult.

With all courses tuned in unison, it shouldn't be much different from a 6-string.

[PJ]

A friend of mine bought a 12-string a year or so back and I messed with it for a few afternoons. I had great fun playing it in DADGAD. I didn't have it long enough to properly evaluate it, but my initial thoughts were that I liked it.

What I didn't like were chords where I played all 12 strings - just too much noise to pick up the subtlties DADGAD. Also, the high G string bothered me. About 20 years ago I owned a 12-string and kept breaking the high G. I replaced it with a regular G and much prefered it. If I were ever to get another 12-string and play in DADGAD, I'd probably do the same again.

[meemtp]

A friend of mine took the 6th course of strings off of his Martin 12 string and turned it into a "Guittern". It sounded pretty neat, but not as nice and full as a true Cittern.

[Wombat]

A friend of mine took the 6th course of strings off of his Martin 12 string and turned it into a "Guittern". It sounded pretty neat, but not as nice and full as a true Cittern.

I imagine your friend tuned in fourths rather than fifths. I would, if I tried that trick. That would affect the sound a lot.

[Wombat]

I've only ever owned one 12-string (a small-bodied Gibson, which I sold in 1979), but I do recall that getting everything in exact tune--including fretted notes matching open strings--was quite difficult.

It's actually impossible with the octave strings, no matter what the scale. To be in tune up the neck if they are in tune when open, the octave string and the lower string have to be fractionally different in length. You would need a bridge adjustable not just for each course but for each string to solve the problem. I would imagine that really expensive twelve string guitars would have this feature.

Listen to twelve string guitarists who play up the neck and Greek bouzouki players. They both tend to stay down in first position on those octave-tuned courses. Think of people like Blind Willie McTell and Blind Willie Johnson. The slide ventures right up the neck but mainly on the top course.

[greenspiderweb]

I can imagine though, with the right strings, that DADGAD would sound great on the 12 string.

Open tunings make slide possible, and slide on a 12 string is like no other! My favorites for that are Leo Kotke, and a newer discovery, James Coberly Smith. You can hear him on cdbaby.com here:

http://cdbaby.com/cd/jcsmith2

Check out #2 "Chase" my favorite!

[Wombat]

I can imagine though, with the right strings, that DADGAD would sound great on the 12 string.

Open tunings make slide possible, and slide on a 12 string is like no other! My favorites for that are Leo Kotke, and a newer discovery, James Coberly Smith. You can hear him on cdbaby.com here:

http://cdbaby.com/cd/jcsmith2

Check out #2 "Chase" my favorite!

Leo Kotke was an exception to my remarks about 12-string players and slide and I knew that when I posted. Do you know if he has a guitar that has solved the tuning problem? It sure sounds like it.

[Loren]

Thanks for that link Barry, very nice. I love listening to good 12 string stuff, but it's a bit hard to come by.

I actually almost bought a used 12 string earlier this week, because I've been wanting one for years. Unfortunately, upon seeing the guitar in person, I had to pass as the top had bellied significantly, and the guy wouldn't budge on the price. If he'd been willing to go down a bit I'd have bought it and then installed a Bridge doctor.

Ah well, I'll continue my search, and in the mean time, I'll probably pick up that CD.

Loren

[greenspiderweb]

Leo Kotke was an exception to my remarks about 12-string players and slide and I knew that when I posted. Do you know if he has a guitar that has solved the tuning problem? It sure sounds like it.

Well, he was an exceptional guitar player in the 70's but I don't believe he had anything special in equipment then; it's just that he was going for the overall effect in his sound, and probably didn't worry too much about being slightly out in the upper reaches, besides being able to compensate slightly with a slide. But, a lot of his music was pretty fast, so not much time for analyzing the tuning on a particular note either. Coberly reminds me of him too-similar styles.

Thanks for that link Barry, very nice. I love listening to good 12 string stuff, but it's a bit hard to come by.

I actually almost bought a used 12 string earlier this week, because I've been wanting one for years. Unfortunately, upon seeing the guitar in person, I had to pass as the top had bellied significantly, and the guy wouldn't budge on the price. If he'd been willing to go down a bit I'd have bought it and then installed a Bridge doctor.

Ah well, I'll continue my search, and in the mean time, I'll probably pick up that CD.

You're welcome, Loren. Yeah, when I first heard this, it made me want to grab it too! Not much in 12 string, and especially slide.

Too bad about the 12 string you passed up, but another will come along. Have you tried the Martin J12-15's? I tried one a while back, and was pretty impressed with the tone, especially for the bucks.

Seagull also makes some very good guitars for the money, and I just saw that Elderly lists a S-A12, which has a cedar top (don't know that I would want a Cedar top on a 12 string-lots of pull on the bridge), but they might have a Spruce topped version, don't know. The quality in construction is there, though.

One of the big problems with used 12 strings is that they many times need a neck reset, with the action so high at the upper end. If you can't shave the saddle or bridge, then it becomes an expensive proposition. I never did try a bridge doctor, but it seems to work for those bellied tops. I don't know if it changes the tone any, though.

[Loren]

I've heard good things about the Martin J's but haven't run across any yet. Not sure I'd be into a 15 though, as I've never been crazy about the sound of the mahogany topped guitars I have tried. The J12-16 might be more to my liking, but it's out of my price range at the moment, even used.

I've been hoping Guild would start producing a GAD series Jumbo 12 string, but so far, no luck. The closest thing to that is the guitar I looked at the other day, an Alvarez AJ60S-12, which is esssentially a Guild Jumbo 12 copy with a Solid Engleman top and laminated maple back and sides. Costs about half of what the J12-16RGT goes for new, and of course is far less than a new Guild.

Loren

[greenspiderweb]

I've heard good things about the Martin J's but haven't run across any yet. Not sure I'd be into a 15 though, as I've never been crazy about the sound of the mahogany topped guitars I have tried. The J12-16 might be more to my liking, but it's out of my price range at the moment, even used.

I've been hoping Guild would start producing a GAD series 12 string, but so far, no luck. The closest thing to that is the guitar I looked at the other day, an Alvarez AJ60S-12, which is esssentially a Guild Jumbo 12 copy with a Solid Engleman top and laminated maple back and sides. Costs about half of what the J12-16RGT goes for new, and of course is far less than a new Guild.
Loren

I didn't think I would like the Martin Mahogany topped 12 string as much as I did either, but it sounded pretty nice. You might be able to find one to try at a Martin dealer. It still isn't cheap. Some of the imports, like Aria, and the Alvarez are really nice for what you pay. The workmanship on those two seem to be above average on the solid top models. Elderly has an Alvarez that looks nice-yes, it's the model you said-does look like the Guild. As long as you have a solid top, you will get a good tone (if they did the bracing right). Just like the Seagull guitars that are made in Canada-really nice construction, and they sound great. Never saw a 12 string, but they do make them.

[Darwin]

I've only ever owned one 12-string (a small-bodied Gibson, which I sold in 1979), but I do recall that getting everything in exact tune--including fretted notes matching open strings--was quite difficult.

It's actually impossible with the octave strings, no matter what the scale. To be in tune up the neck if they are in tune when open, the octave string and the lower string have to be fractionally different in length. You would need a bridge adjustable not just for each course but for each string to solve the problem. I would imagine that really expensive twelve string guitars would have this feature.

The "saddle" on my Gibson was horrid. For one thing, it was wood--ebony, I suppose.

Before I traded off my Martin D-34, the saddle had to be relocated to solve a serious intonation problem. Frank Ford (of Gryphon Stringed Instruments in Palo Alto, CA) put on a compensated bone saddle that was great. I would think that an expert could come up with a compensated saddle that would at least help with the octave string problem. I don't suppose it would be cheap, though. On the other hand, it might be fun to do it yourself, given enough time and enough saddle material--and some really good needle files.

[Wombat]

Before I traded off my Martin D-34, the saddle had to be relocated to solve a serious intonation problem. Frank Ford (of Gryphon Stringed Instruments in Palo Alto, CA) put on a compensated bone saddle that was great. I would think that an expert could come up with a compensated saddle that would at least help with the octave string problem. I don't suppose it would be cheap, though. On the other hand, it might be fun to do it yourself, given enough time and enough saddle material--and some really good needle files.

It'd be fun for someone like you or Loren. It'd be a living mightmare for me.

For someone who plays a stack of instruments and was pretty handy at sports involving hand-eye coordination, I'm the most unhandy handyman you've ever seen. Well, I can change and clean spark plugs but anything that requires real skill, forget it. Some of my musician friends are also first rate tradesmen and they get a laugh out of my efforts I can tell you, although I can always act as 'builder's labourer' for them. They don't know how I can play many more instruments than they can and not be able to build a cabinet or rehang a window. I always tell them that it is because I was practising instruments while they were building cabinets.

[Loren]

Oddly enough, I have sort of the opposite problem as Wombat: I can quickly learn just about anything physically techinical and detail oriented, except when it comes to playing instruments, which is the source of more frustration in my life than anything else. It's quite strange, I can sit down and concentrate for hours on doing very precise instrument making related skills, but when I sit down to practice any instrument, I rapidly become impatient, restless, irritated and frustrated. Very bizarre. It's always been that way for me, and it drives me absolutely nuts, because music has always been one of the most important things in my life, yet I still suck as a player. Honestly, some days I think maybe I need medication to correct this issue, and I'm not the type of person who normally goes for that sort of thing.

On the saddle subject, I really am surprised this hasn't been addressed by someone. With all the money, effort and technology Bob Taylor has thrown at guitars, I'd have expected someone like him to have come up with this sort of thing years ago, particularly with 12 strings being a significant bit of business for them.

Loren