Michael Jackson

[Cork]

Meanwhile, Muslims the world over are going bonkers speculating on whether MJ actually converted (as has been persistently rumored over the years) and would get a Muslim burial. Prominent religious scholars are writing about him on their websites. The imam at the Friday prayer here even commented on it. Truly weird.

Apparently the Muslim world has little, or no, tolerance for homosexuality, including homosexual child molesters, if so, and, if the Muslim world then claims MJ as one of their own, then could that act not constitute a restitution of MJ's name, as innocent, or, as "Muslims the world over are going bonkers speculating," could that mean that such Muslims could doubt MJ's innocence?

[Cork]

BTW, isn't it nice to have PROCT back, once again.

[jim stone]

...'I am certain that false accusations of child sexual abuse occur. However, when there are accusations of child molestation from multiple parties, layered on top of a personality and set of public behaviors that are consistent with pedophilia, it strains credibility to dismiss them all as false accusations.'

No it does not. There were obvious other reasons why someone like
Jackson would be targeted, including his odd public behaviour
which made him more vulnerable. Once he paid up
to make it go away, because his health and sanity were failing,
others would smell the blood.
Emphatically:There really is no substitute for
considering the accusations individually and in detail.
This is a genuine question of
fairness. My father-in-law defended people against such charges.
I think we need to be careful, especially with this sort of
accusation.

So, Jim, it looks as though your position could amount to a Jimmy Carter defense, that he only did it in his mind.

Well, of course Jimmy Carter was innocent, right?

No, it's that if you look at the accusations in detail, they look bogus.
The first came from a kid whose accusations were elicited
when the kid was medicated on a powerful sedative-hypnotic, ergo, very suggestible.
What merit could such accusations have?
The father then demands money of Jackson to drop charges. Jackson
finally pays him, and the father drops charges and the police drop
the case because there isn't enough evidence to continue.
Meanwhile the kids mother insists nothing ever happened.
Looks like a shake down by the father, yes?

The second accusation comes from a family with a history of
trying to extort money from people by charging sexual abuse--and succeeding
too (see my earlier posts on this). In these previous efforts the children
are rehearsed so as to corroborate the crazy accusations.
One of the kids gets cancer, Jackson pays his expenses
and invites the kid to Neverland and, guess what?
The crazy family accuses Jackson of sexually molesting the kid!
Surpise, surprise! He is acquitted on all charges.

When you read the details, the accusations look without merit
and motivated by a grab for money. Money-hungry father
elicits accusation from 13 year old on a powerful hypnotic drug,
demands money to drop charges. Mom says none of the
accusations are true. Family with history
of extorting money by making loony accusations
of sexual molestation plainly researches previous
case, goes to the SAME lawyer, and makes
the same charges about Jackson--Jury thinks
it's a joke.

There's no solid reason to think Jackson ever wanted sex
with children, not to mention that he ever tried to get it.
Give me a hundred accusations like this and they add up
to nothing. Fair is fair.

[rh]

Meanwhile, Muslims the world over are going bonkers speculating on whether MJ actually converted (as has been persistently rumored over the years) and would get a Muslim burial. Prominent religious scholars are writing about him on their websites. The imam at the Friday prayer here even commented on it. Truly weird.

Apparently the Muslim world has little, or no, tolerance for homosexuality, including homosexual child molesters, if so, and, if the Muslim world then claims MJ as one of their own, then could that act not constitute a restitution of MJ's name, as innocent, or, as "Muslims the world over are going bonkers speculating," could that mean that such Muslims could doubt MJ's innocence?

It could be that people in other parts of the world are less likely to associate MJ with the child-molestation charges than with his megacelebrity status. I'm guessing, of course, as i live in the USofA. I've actually heard very little speculation about his sexual proclivities from Muslims here; if he was homosexual and/or a pedophile, he never admitted it, and nobody really seems to care. It admittedly seems little strange that such a gender-bent guy as MJ would be so popular among Arabs in particular, however the definition of homosexuality in the Arab world is not so cut-and-dried as one might think.

The "Muslims going bonkers speculating" is more about a particular mania in many members of the community to claim almost any person of note as "one of ours".

And, yes, this has ventured into PROCT territory, which wasn't my intention, so i will make this my last post on the subject.

[Cork]

...'I am certain that false accusations of child sexual abuse occur. However, when there are accusations of child molestation from multiple parties, layered on top of a personality and set of public behaviors that are consistent with pedophilia, it strains credibility to dismiss them all as false accusations.'

No it does not. There were obvious other reasons why someone like
Jackson would be targeted, including his odd public behaviour
which made him more vulnerable. Once he paid up
to make it go away, because his health and sanity were failing,
others would smell the blood.
Emphatically:There really is no substitute for
considering the accusations individually and in detail.
This is a genuine question of
fairness. My father-in-law defended people against such charges.
I think we need to be careful, especially with this sort of
accusation.

So, Jim, it looks as though your position could amount to a Jimmy Carter defense, that he only did it in his mind.

Well, of course Jimmy Carter was innocent, right?

No, it's that if you look at the accusations in detail, they look bogus.
The first came from a kid whose accusations were elicited
when the kid was medicated on a powerful sedative-hypnotic, ergo, very suggestible.
What merit could such accusations have?
The father then demands money of Jackson to drop charges. Jackson
finally pays him, and the father drops charges and the police drop
the case because there isn't enough evidence to continue.
Meanwhile the kids mother insists nothing ever happened.
Looks like a shake down by the father, yes?

The second accusation comes from a family with a history of
trying to extort money from people by charging sexual abuse--and succeeding
too (see my earlier posts on this). In these previous efforts the children
are rehearsed so as to corroborate the crazy accusations.
One of the kids gets cancer, Jackson pays his expenses
and invites the kid to Neverland and, guess what?
The crazy family accuses Jackson of sexually molesting the kid!
Surpise, surprise! He is acquitted on all charges.

When you read the details, the accusations look without merit
and motivated by a grab for money. Money-hungry father
elicits accusation from 13 year old on a powerful hypnotic drug,
demands money to drop charges. Mom says none of the
accusations are true. Family with history
of extorting money by making loony accusations
of sexual molestation plainly researches previous
case, goes to the SAME lawyer, and makes
the same charges about Jackson--Jury thinks
it's a joke.

There's no solid reason to think Jackson ever wanted sex
with children, not to mention that he ever tried to get it.
Give me a hundred accusations like this and they add up
to nothing. Fair is fair.

You might not believe this, Jim, but I do side with you.

That is, I've got MJ pegged as altogether guilty of the worst, but for one thing, no tangible evidence.

[Cork]

Meanwhile, Muslims the world over are going bonkers speculating on whether MJ actually converted (as has been persistently rumored over the years) and would get a Muslim burial. Prominent religious scholars are writing about him on their websites. The imam at the Friday prayer here even commented on it. Truly weird.

Apparently the Muslim world has little, or no, tolerance for homosexuality, including homosexual child molesters, if so, and, if the Muslim world then claims MJ as one of their own, then could that act not constitute a restitution of MJ's name, as innocent, or, as "Muslims the world over are going bonkers speculating," could that mean that such Muslims could doubt MJ's innocence?

It could be that people in other parts of the world are less likely to associate MJ with the child-molestation charges than with his megacelebrity status. I'm guessing, of course, as i live in the USofA. I've actually heard very little speculation about his sexual proclivities from Muslims here; if he was homosexual and/or a pedophile, he never admitted it, and nobody really seems to care. It admittedly seems little strange that such a gender-bent guy as MJ would be so popular among Arabs in particular, however the definition of homosexuality in the Arab world is not so cut-and-dried as one might think.

The "Muslims going bonkers speculating" is more about a particular mania in many members of the community to claim almost any person of note as "one of ours".

And, yes, this has ventured into PROCT territory, which wasn't my intention, so i will make this my last post on the subject.

Your observations are interesting, thank you, and so beyond any immediate response I could have, let me ponder your thoughts for a while, please, and I'll likely get back to you about this. :-)

[jim stone]

The psychologist for the prosecution, who had talked to the boys in both cases,
said, maybe after the trial, that in his opinion Jackson wasn't a pedophile.
He was a 'regressed ten-year old.' I think this is suggestive. Jackson
wanted to be a happy child among happy children, something he
never had. He wanted this very badly.
It wasn't sex he was after, it was a pajama party. He wanted his
friends to sleep over and to lie in bed and watch TV
with them and laugh. He wanted them to be a family.
He didn't understand
that he was violating social norms or that there were
sharks in the waters.

This explains most everything, IMO. And it's sad.
There was something odd going on in Neverland (where one
stays a child forever), but
it wasn't pedophilia.

[Cork]

The psychologist for the prosecution, who had talked to the boys in both cases,
said, maybe after the trial, that in his opinion Jackson wasn't a pedophile.
He was a 'regressed ten-year old.' I think this is suggestive. Jackson
wanted to be a happy child among happy children, something he
never had. He wanted the childhood he never had because his
own had been so terrible. He wanted this badly. It wasn't
sex he was after, it was a pajama party. He didn't understand
that he was violating social norms or that there were
sharks in the waters.

I can see where MJ could have been coerced as a child, and for two reasons. For one, at the time of his debut with The Jackson Five, at a time of "Blaxploitation", he would have had racial segregation to face, and so could have been coerced to comply with the expectations of the white majority of that time. For the other, he apparently also faced a commercial publication pressure from the world which was his, and his family's, bread and butter, and commercial does not necessarily imply truth. Altogether, it's no wonder that he personally could have faced some major challenges, and may never have had a childhood opportunity to develop as an individual.

[jim stone]

He said he was so afraid of his father that he would throw up when he saw him.
His father abused him physically and psychologically and he never got over it.
Jackson couldn't talk of his childhood without crying. His father would
beat the kids with a belt when they made a mistake rehearsing,
Jackson said.

His father ridiculed his nose, which began kind of plump.
As an adult he tried to make his nose disappear.
He hated himself, he hated his appearance.
You can see why he would spend his life being
kind to children, why he would build a place
where sick and dying children could find a
refuge and then, ultimately, become a child
in it himself.

[Colin]

Jackson was a man of modest talent who had very good people around him, mostly notably, Quincy Jones. He did not come up with the moon walk, btw. He was not a dancer - he did "moves." Now, what Frank Sinatra had to do to keep up wth Gene Kelly - that was dancing! Spinning around and moonwalking is not dancing. He was a one-trick pony, but he made the most of what he could do for awhile. Right place at the right time didn't hurt either. But a musical genius or a great contributor? Let's just say that I would never put him in the same category as Stevie Wonder. Now, when he passes, watch the dam that holds back our tears burst.

BTW, it so happens that some years back, I sold Michael two hand-made ceramic flutes. I wonder what he did with them?

MJ wisnae a dancer. Really? I guess that's why Fred Astaire was, apparently, a big fan.

[ Post edited by Moderator. ]

[Cork]

He said he was so afraid of his father that he would throw up when he saw him.
His father abused him physically and psychologically and he never got over it.
Jackson couldn't talk of his childhood without crying. His father would
beat the kids with a belt when they made a mistake rehearsing,
Jackson said.

His father ridiculed his nose, which began kind of plump.
As an adult he tried to make his nose disappear.
He hated himself, he hated his appearance.
You can see why he would spend his life being
kind to children, why he would build a place
where sick and dying children could find a
refuge and then, ultimately, become a child
in it himself.

Well, when I was in real trouble as a child, as my own father approached I could hear him taking off his leather belt, then doubling it over and snapping it, long story very short. And, to this day, I am ever protective of children, and I will not hesitate to defend them. Yet, beyond all of that, I somehow didn't wind up with even a shadow of the apparent phobias MJ apparently had. Moreover, that's why I suspect but cannot prove his apparent guilt.

[jim stone]

Well, wiki has a good deal about this (Michael Jackson). It sounds very bad.
Matter of degree. There is no question that serious
abuse can have lasting consequences.

[mukade]

Regardless of the last 10 years or so of his career and personal life, most of his music was awesome.

Exactly. That's not a waste of space.

His music was awesome only in some people's opinion. He had amazing arrangers, composers and musicians around him. His music was commercial, shallow pop music, designed to make money and as much of it as possible. Stick him on his own in front of an audience without all the effects and imagine how shallow and crap his singing and dancing would seem. I'm amazed that on a forum that celebrates a thousand unsung geniuses in Irish music, all of whom are a thousand times more talented than wacko sicko Jacko, you can get such sycophantic rubbish being spouted.

Irish trad was the pop music of its day, and most trad performers don't write their own music.

I am no fan of Michael Jackson.
We will never know what really went on with those children and that will taint his memory forever...but
I remember seeing the first clip in this video years ago and thinking there are very few stars who have this kind of intensity.
He seems totally taken over by the sounds.
He had been doing it from such and early age - the man was definitely made of music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmdJrKjW ... re=related

[s1m0n]

Apparently the Muslim world has little, or no, tolerance for homosexuality, including homosexual child molesters...

I don't think he's gay. I don't know what, (if anything) Michael Jackson was doing with boys, but my guess would be that in Jackson's fantasy, the kids are him. I think they're standing in for the young Michael Jackson while he re-enacts something from his childhood.

[Dale]

Folks have had their say.