Death in Scandinavia

[Steamwalker]

You know the most expendable form of life on this planet (if any life is indeed expendable)? It's humans. The earth, as a whole, would be better off if we weren't here. The whole "man is the measure of all things" argument is really quite tiresome. The most profound thing said in the Matrix trilogy was when Agent Smith described man as a virus that consumes every natural resource until it's gone and then moves to another area to do the same. Virtually every animal develops a natural equilibrium with the environment - save man. There are things that no man has the right to do; ending the existence of another species should not be a choice that we should be able to make. There was that commercial on television many years back that posed the question as to why man alone had the power to destroy the earth. It ended with the point that only man had the power to save it.

[Walden]

You know the most expendable form of life on this planet (if any life is indeed expendable)? It's humans. The earth, as a whole, would be better off if we weren't here.

That's just not true, but even if it were true it would be unverifiable.

[Walden]

And these puffins are not an endangered species. They're listed as a species of least concern.

It's like when Britain outlawed foxhunting. It wasn't my place to stop them and say "you're going to be overrun with these predators." It was their lesson to learn, and we can't stop them, nor ought we to.

[Steamwalker]

And these puffins are not an endangered species. They're listed as a species of least concern.

I made no reference to puffins or Scandinavians.

I know nothing about Norway nor it's relationship to puffins to suggest that they should or should not hunt them. The bigger issue is whether a group of people have the right to hunt an animal to extinction (such as the case with whales) because to prevent them from doing so would deprive them of some social or cultural legacy. As mentioned by someone else in this thread, this isn't a political or national issue. It's an ecological one. If puffins are in great supply, good ahead and hunt them, eat them, and use them to make pretty hats or whatever you suggest they do. I won't pass judgment on it. But to suggest that any nation, state or culture has the right to deliberately kill off a species under the auspices of cultural identity is both irresponsible and egregious.

[Jack]

That's where you're wrong. The bigger issue isn't how we related to the resources (plants, animals, other resources such as oil) that we control. That's only a small part of it. The biggest issue here is how we each relate to us. It's how we step back and respect the choices of those nations and peoples who decide to use their resources differently than we would, without telling them what they "should" do because we have some belief that any one of their resources is somehow pretty or cool.

[Steamwalker]

I think my criticism to your reasoning is that you value humans at the expense of all others going back again to my point that you are equating man as the measure of all things. Everything else is less than. You value free will over the lives of those that cannot speak for themselves. The point I would make is that we are all vitally important, one not more so than the other and all life form a rich tapestry. If man understood his relationship to his environment, than no life would be expendable and the planet would benefit from the presence of us all. Speak to the earth and it will teach thee. Learn about the creator by studying and respecting his creation. That's not just man, you know.

[Cork]

The Germanic, Norwegian tribes are but more recent occupiers of an indigenous Sámi territory, as the Sámi have been there, in what is now Finland, northwestern Russia, and Scandinavia, for more than ten thousand years, for far longer than all others now there. Moreover, as a matter of human segregation, Norwegians and others have put the Sámi through a living hell, for centuries, and until only more recently. So, think again, please, and I'm sure that my Sámi friends will appreciate your sensitivity, in that regard.

Have a look: http://www.galdu.org/web/index.php?slad ... iella1=eng

[emmline]

Puffins are cool.

And apparently, also edible and quite tasty.

Are you sure this dish isn't meant to be served warm?
(I did that Nat'l Geo Genographic cheek swab thing and found out my ancestors are Vikings. I'm sure we ate that back in the day. Tofu may have been scarce.)

still and all...
The difficulty is that ecological issues, extinction of species, etc, isn't really something you can compartmentalize as affecting just the political region in which it's occurring. So saying "we" can't tell "them" what to hunt or not hunt ignores the fact that those lines in the atlas dividing Norway (pink) from the North Sea (blue) from the UK (green,) aren't relevant to the issue of global ecology except in that the humans within those imaginary boundaries seem to have a real hard time cooperating nicely.

[dwest]

A more important issue is determine why populations are decline in some parts of this species range. A number of ecologists consider Puffins to be an indicator species of health in their ecosystem. If their numbers are dropping in spite of attempts to maintain sustainable harvest levels than something serious is impacting their ecosystem which in turn will impact the humans, and everything else, living in that system. Harvesting levels may be having less impact than other factors but my experience has shown me that often more conservative harvest levels are ignored for too long to the detriment of the species. Colonial nesting birds all have different tolerance levels to disturbance of population numbers before there is a population collapse in the colony. The tipping point is often quite different from colony to colony within a species.

[FJohnSharp]

That's where you're wrong. The bigger issue isn't how we related to the resources (plants, animals, other resources such as oil) that we control. That's only a small part of it. The biggest issue here is how we each relate to us. It's how we step back and respect the choices of those nations and peoples who decide to use their resources differently than we would, without telling them what they "should" do because we have some belief that any one of their resources is somehow pretty or cool.

Until the Japanese stop killing endangered whales, I think everyone else has a responsibility to intervene. It it not okay to allow one species to drive another to extinction. I do not respect this part of their culture, nor should I. If Norwegians want to hunt puffins for food, fine, until puffins become endangered.

[Joseph E. Smith]

Cultural identity and rights aside, we all live on this earth. It is the only habitat we have. If, by our actions, we threaten this habitat then we have a responsibility to ourselves to prevent or stop that threat. It's not so much an issue of save the planet (or any of it's inhabitants) as much as it is an issue of 'save ourselves'.

[tin-titan]

Poor lil' puffies.

[FJohnSharp]

I KNOW!

[dwest]

Earlier this summer Ecorazzi reported that Ramsay spent time in Iceland hunting puffins. You see in Britain, where Ramsay regularly records, puffins are endangered and therefore protected by law. However, Gordon took the special trip to Iceland so he might get the chance to hunt the otherwise endangered bird. As if that wasn’t enough, after shooting the puffin he proceeded to rip out its heart and eat it raw.

'HELL" Chef Gordon Ramsay nearly became a meal himself while filming his UK show "The F Word."
Ramsay says he was almost killed when he slipped off a steep cliff in Iceland and plummeted into an icy creek below while hunting rare and colorful puffin birds to cook on TV.
Ramsay, 41, says that he panicked when his heavy boots weighed him down in the icy water beneath the 280-foot sheer rock face on which the aquatic sea birds roost.
"I thought I was a goner," Ramsay told London's Sun newspaper.
A spokeswoman could not say yesterday if footage of his icy near-death plunge will be seen when the episode airs.
On the shoot, Ramsay was also bitten on his face by one of a puffins and required stitches.

[emmline]

On the shoot, Ramsay was also bitten on his face by one of a puffins and required stitches.

Fitting.