Betcha can't say "Voldemort" ...

[Nanohedron]

That wh... do you know where that's from?

To the best of my knowledge, "wh" used to be spelled "hw" in the Anglo Saxon. Somebody flipped it around.

[Coffee]

Yup.

Oh, by the way mods... I do use double spaces after my periods. Why do they keep getting edited out?
I think it looks better with.

[benhall.1]

Yup.

Oh, by the way mods... I do use double spaces after my periods. Why do they keep getting edited out?
I think it looks better with.

As it happens, I'm with you. I always use double spaces after full stops. The site takes them out. Ah well.

[Nanohedron]

If it's any consolation, phone texting supports double spacing. Well, at least on my gadget.

I'm going to belabor "herbs" only a little bit longer: Just dropped in on a webpage on the topic of the silent H, and sure enough, someone I am forced to call a Little Englander said that "Americans think the H in 'herbs' is silent". Think? It is silent if yer talkin 'Merkin. That's just a plain fact, like the sky is blue. If I may point out that in the UK one might say 'ouse and then herbs...well, I'm afraid we have much to poke each others' ribs about.

[benhall.1]

If it's any consolation, phone texting supports double spacing.

Well, at least on my gadget.

I'm going to belabor "herbs" only a little bit longer: Dropped in on a webpage on the topic of the silent H, and sure enough, someone I am forced to call a Little Englander said that "Americans think the H in 'herbs' is silent". Think? It is silent if yer talkin 'Merkin. That's just a plain fact. For their inner peace and clarity of mind I would advise folks in the UK to dispense with any illusion that the US is somehow Britain writ large. It ain't, cousin. If you say 'ouse and then herbs, we have much to debate.

We definitely wouldn't say 'ouse. Some do, of course. But we don't talk about them.

In the meantime I've been thinking a bit more about the "herbs" thing as well. I've been puzzling - I did pick up your point, made in your previous post and now again in your latest - that it's just the normal way of saying the word in American English. Then what struck me was this: what was the sequence of events, possibly on both sides of the Atlantic, that led to such different pronunciation? Was the word borrowed directly from French in all versions of English, retaining its dropped 'h'? If so, why did it acquire a pronounced, rather than silent, 's' in American English? Did we in the UK start adding a pronounced 'h' on the beginning of the word that wasn't there before? Of all possible combinations of events, what was the actual, historical sequence?

The more I think about any of this stuff, the more I think I just don't understand language at all.

Oh, and btw, we definitely don't think America is "Britain write large".

[Nanohedron]

Sorry, I amended that and obviously too late. I decided it was unhelpful and possibly too prickly. Please refer to my post again for the better-polished final edition.

[benhall.1]

Sorry, I amended that and obviously too late. I decided it was unhelpful and possibly too prickly. Please refer to my post again for the finished, polished, final edition.

OK. Just about to. I didn't find the original version too prickly, as it happens.

[Nanohedron]

Damn. Can't get any editing done unnoticed around here.

[benhall.1]

Damn. Can't get any editing done unnoticed around here.

I know. Life is SO unfair.

[Nanohedron]

I know, right?

The more I think about any of this stuff, the more I think I just don't understand language at all.

Sure you do. Philology just isn't our stomping grounds, is all.

[Coffee]

Nano... careful. All of the United States is not Minnesota. The h in herbs may be pronounced in some parts of this very large nation.
And why not? (Yes, I also say the h in why; otherwise, it'd sound like the letter y.)

Me, I pronounce the h in herbs... because it's there! I also say the k in knife; barely, to be sure. You'd never notice them unless you were looking for them. Almost subliminal, but they're there.
I find that the older I get, the more deliberate I am in my annunciation...

"Though some have forgotten the flower of speech
And waltz through the garden where I go to defend
Misbegotten notions, while talking like this
For I am one thousand years old."

[Nanohedron]

Nano... careful. All of the United States is not Minnesota. The h in herbs may be pronounced in some parts of this very large nation.
And why not?

And I thank you for the correction, for I was certain that as I ranted, some Americans who do pronounce the H would be reading. All I can say is that it's not been my normal experience (and I've actually set a tentative foot outside of Minnesota, if it helps ). Now I'm curious enough to do a poll.

Nice poem segment, by the way. What's it from?

[Coffee]

A They Might be Giants song, on their John Henry album.

[emmline]

I do not pronounce the h in herb, nor do I recall it ever being done as a normal thing. I am speaking from the Mid-Atlantic.

Nano has covered much of what I would otherwise contribute here. Most Yanks, even the relatively educated ones (my brother Jim excluded*,) tend to avoid pronunciations which risk making us sound pretentious. Hence, except for certain particular applications, we are likely to use Americanized forms of borrowed words.

*My brother, a self-educating polyglot, was speaking Spanish with a Castilian lisp. "Why?" I wondered aloud.
"Because," he replied, with a slight smirk, "I am a snob."
"Then why," I pressed, "don't you pronounce English in a European manner as well?"
Just more smirk.

[walrii]

Interesting thread. Some thoughts:

At what point does a immigrant word become a naturalized citizen and take on the pronunciation of its adopted land? Lieutenant comes to mind. Germans, Brits, Americans and just about everyone else have lieutenants in their military and their own pronunciation. I teach at a NATO training base and the correct pronunciation of lieutenant depends on who you are calling one.

Two spaces after periods. I've been using them ever since junior high typing class when it was drilled into me with a half-inch bit. Sadly, Mr. Jobs and the folks at Apple view it as an affection, or worse, a crime and remove it. I am evolving but not willingly.

Herbs. I grew up pronouncing the h but I grew up in the very deep South and picked up a number of oddities. (I was many years into adult-hood before I realized the French don't pronounce it dee-now-ment with accent in the middle.) Nowadays, I tend to pronounce herbs however the last person said it.

I know how I pronounce lingerie which is the only way I've ever heard it. I'm guessing that makes me one of the people we're discussing.

Edited to add:

And the whole world seems to pronounce it wrong.

I'll be mulling that statement for a while.