Am I entitled, aka What is entitlement?

[susnfx]

Trying to figure out a short and sweet way to explain this (failure). I've worked for 16 years for a medical clinic. It was started by four physicians 35 years ago and right from the start their stance was that employees and physicians were all family--the physicians would make sure the employees were taken care of and they hired their administrator with this understanding. The benefits are and always have been exceptionally good.

The last couple of years, however, the physicians (six of them now--only one of the original four still with us) have become more and more concerned about their own retirement and finding ways to get rid of or lessen employee benefits while keeping their own. I had access to a lot of very sensitive information about board meeting discussions and know how ugly it got. Eighteen months ago, the administrator of nearly 30 years quit over it and one of the most respected physicians in the group left and went to another practice. The physicians were afraid of a mass exodus if they started cutting benefits at this particular time, so even though decisions had actually been made to get rid of many employee benefits while finding loopholes to keep them for the physicians, steps weren't taken to actually put this into place.

Fast forward 18 months...we have a new administrator who is a yes-man for the doctors. He believes our benefits are "excessive" (his own word). We have tried to get him to see how the benefits came to be set up the way they were and the feelings of the original doctors, but he can't get over his doctor worship and the feeling that we're all a bunch of ungrateful dogs. Last week he did a "benefit questionnaire," asking each of us which benefits were most important to us and why. Today I was told by a co-worker (the daughter of the ex-administrator) that he asked her, "Was Carol [ex-administrator] a socialist? I'm getting a lot of replies on this questionnaire from long-time employees who act like they're entitled to these benefits."

Okay, so, after 16 years (many more for lots of folks) am I entitled to those benefits? I took the job for the benefits (I took a $300 per month cut in pay to move to this clinic), as did many employees. What exactly is "entitled?" After working all those years for a mediocre salary, what am I entitled to?

Thoughts?

Susan

[djm]

Unless you have a signed contract with your employer(s) guaranteeing you these benefits you are entitled to squat. Do you have any form of documentation from your employer stating that these benefits are in lieu of salary as you claim? Probably not.

And now you know why labour unions exist. For all the problems they cause and negative aspects to them, unions are there to protect workers from exactly this sort of exploitation by management, and even then, that protection is far from perfect or unassailable. You can still get hosed, especially after you retire and your employer decides to axe all your retirement benefits.

If you don't have a signed, legal contract with your employer clearly stating and guaranteeing your benefits you have nothing.

djm

[Cork]

djm is about right, and no matter what promise you may have been given in the past, it appears that the current administration has undermined the program.

Moving away from such a situation isn't always an option, so perhaps you could tell us more about your thoughts, in that regard.

[mutepointe]

You have the right to walk out the door.

Speaking from experience, when given the choice of resigning or getting fired, unless you did some totally wrong, always take the option of getting fired. You may be eligibile for unemployment benefits and after working for folks that would fire you, you deserve a break.

I had worked for a place that liked to think of themselves as family until greed got in the way.

[dwinterfield]

Sadly, the others have it about right. The word "entitlement" is a legal term relating to certain categories of government benefits that go to beneficiaries because they're in a legally defined class. For example a person is "entitled" to WIC benefits if they meet income limits and have a young dependent child.

None of this helps you. My wife was an urgent care nurse in a place that started out doing store front medicine and ended up with 600 employees. It eventually went bankrupt. Before that, they brought in new mangers who seemed to have been hired to drive out the long time employees who had the higher levels of benefits. My wide moved on the research nursing and now it's happening again. The medical business can get real ugly some times. Sorry to hear about your situation.

[susnfx]

At this point, quitting is not an option. I have fair insurance--medical and dental (I pay $45 a month for it--plus, I can see a physician if I need to just by walking down the hall), have a profit sharing plan fully paid for by the clinic, and five weeks vacation a year (plus an extra week during the Christmas holidays). In my line of work, I couldn't start at a new place for anywhere near my current salary--or get those benefits. Even if they cut the profit sharing plan (their #1 priority--as long as they can find a loophole to keep it for the doctors alone), I still value my six weeks of vacation and my pay. I'm 56 years old and not likely to be on anybody's list for hiring.

I realize that legally we don't have any way to hold the doctors to what we were promised when we were hired, and although I've lost all trust I had in the physicians, my irritation at the moment is with the administrator who thinks we shouldn't feel entitled to those benefits. Well, I do. Whether or not it was in writing, that was the package I was offered and accepted. I do feel entitled to it. What are we supposed to do if they start cutting benefits--not say a word? Not even feel bad about it? Just feel grateful the doctors are allowing us to continue to work there? Yes, I feel entitled to those benefits!

Susan

[jim stone]

Yes, you are entitled, for the reasons you give.
The fallacy in the above responses is the
assumption that you cannot
be treated unjustly unless you have legal recourse.
Not so. Plenty of people have been treated unjustly
who had no legal recourse. To say you are entitled
to the benefits is to say that you are wronged
(treated unjustly or unfairly) if they are denied
you now.

As to recourse, it's possible there is a verbal contract
in place with the Clinic, one that flows from the original
promises made you. You might wish to talk to
a lawyer about that. Or possibly there's something
in writing.

But whether or not that's so, fair is fair. If the
facts are as you say, this is unfair.

[Cork]

Given your profession, you do have other prospects, age regardless.

For starters, I'd say that this could be a good time to get a fresh resume together, and to begin looking around for other opportunities, just in case.

Frankly, once management gets onto the sort of course as you describe, perhaps there could be little to dissuade their thoughts, so please be prepared.

Personally, I feel badly about the promise being broken, but I'm here to be practical, for you.

[cowtime]

Yes you are entitled. Yes unions are the only thing that really protect the workers from something like this in anyway, although their power is waning.
It is very unfair, but life is very unfair. I find this out more and more the older I get.

I can tell you that when I was a vet tech we were faced with a similar problem. The consultants and accountants started their crap and you know what we did? We ALL got together, everyone that worked there, from the head techs down to the part time kennel workers and invited ourselves to the owner's house that evening for a "meeting". That night we told them that we all not only kept what we had, but we wanted a raise or we all quit. The end. We would walk out. We were dead serious.

Now, they could have hired others to do our jobs, but not nearly as well. After many years together we all worked like a well oiled machine. We could read the dr's minds practically. We knew how to do stuff that they'd forgotten. There was nothing in the whole practice that more than a few of us couldn't do. (even surgery but that wasn't legal) There were lots of things the drs couldn't do.

We got our raise and kept our benefits. It might work for you all, I don't know.

Not long afterward I made the decision to join the US postal service. It has it's low points but at least we have some pitiful excuse for a union.

[susnfx]

Of the 35 employees we currently have (not counting the doctors), 13 of us have been with the clinic for over 15 years--one of my best friends has been there for nearly 31. Nine of us are single or single parents. There are four of us who are over 55 and had planned to stay with the clinic until our retirement--using our profit sharing as the major portion of our retirement funds. There are too many of us who are in no position to make demands on threat of walking out.

Susan

[Cork]

As we are near in age to each other, I sympathize with your position, and I wish I could have a more progressive solution.

[TyroneShoelaces]

sadly, this has become an all too common occurence in the business world. employees who are loyal to the company they worked most of their adult life for and who were promised certain rewards for their decades of service get the shaft because people at the top of the ladder realize there is more for themselves when those below get less. then the monkey business starts. some workers don't find this out until they retire and the big part of the nest egg that they counted on to cushion their retirement never materializes. that happened to my father-in-law. he began working for a distribution company at the end of the war and worked his way up to traffic manager. he was with the company for 40+ years working nights, weekends and when they needed his expertise at the last moment. he stuck with the company to the bitter end. the original owner who promised him the moon died and the company passed to the owner's son who ran it into the ground within a year. the company had to close its doors and the retirement benefits previously promised to its workers were suddenly gone -- as was the son when they tried looking for him.

in my case, the company i work for gave a series of retirement seminars that we were all required to attend. at one seminar we were each given a form that we were required to sign stating that we were aware that any retirement benefits we were promised when hired might not be as significant as we were led to believe all along. they stressed other retirement vehicles like 401 (k) over the company's plan. i am wondering, too, what will happen with the benefits i was promised.

sure, there's always litigation. that's a long, expensive, ugly road with no guarantees. if certain people have their way, you could find yourself also paying the court costs and legal fees for your employer if you lose the case.

[BillChin]

I've heard too many stories.

A friend working for a major corporation had her retirement plan converted from a defined benefit traditional type of pension to a 401k when she was age 60 with 25 years at the company. She lost big time on the exchange.

Another friend was foolish enough to have most of her 401k in company stock. On the surface, the company seemed a solid, staid, conservatively run company. The company went bankrupt when she was about 60 years old, and the stock became worthless.

I was working for a company with a headquarters in another city. Three top execs fly out to visit our plant, and invited everyone to a hotel across the street for a rah-rah speech and Q&A session. The three execs told us they were freezing their own salaries for that year and that they had no plans for any layoffs. Three months later, 80% of my department was out on the street, and it was later found out that all three execs were given a $50,000 special cash bonus for that year.

I think the exchange from the movie "The Empire Strikes Back" goes something like this:
Lando speaking to Darth Vader, after Lando sold out his friends in exchange for certain terms, then Vader violates those terms: "We had a deal."
Vader: "I am changing the deal. Pray that I don't change it again."

[missy]

"legally" entitled? No, sadly.

But these things are / were part of your salary. For years, we would get a "benefit summary" that stated how much our salary "should" be if we weren't getting our benefits. Once the company started knocking down the flex comp payments, however, they stopped furnishing these reports.

I'm just holding my breath that I'll get medical when I retire. I don't expect it for free - I expect to pay for it - but at least the ability to stay on a group policy.

I also expect to work when I retire, but hopefully I don't have to do so full time.

[dwinterfield]

When my wife ran into problems a few years ago, they eventually told her to look for another job. We went to a lawyer. When she heard the story and noted that my wife was in her early 50s, she explained about age discrimination. The law (federal I think) protects people over a certain age, 50 I think, from discrimination. It's discrimination if an employer acts against you because of your age. Accrued benefits are a function of age. If they try to fire you because you're too expensive, it's discrimination.

If it gets bad talk to a employment lawyer. In my wife's case, she didn't want to stay, but instead of being pushed out, she got severance, all accrued benefits, (retirement fund as an IRA roll-over), very positive letter of recommendation, job search assistance, 6 months of insurance etc. It took one phone call from her lawyer to the health center's lawyer. Their lawyer verified the facts and called back in an hour with the severance package offer.