question for cyclists

[chas]

I bike about 10 miles a couple of times a week primarily to allow me to run more (strengthening the quads). I started this probably four or five years ago, and since then I've noticed that my toes begin to go numb after half an hour. Any ideas on how my technique might be causing this?

Among the things I've tried: I was pretty sure this was due to the toe clips cutting off some circulation, but I recently replaced my 25-year-old bike and got cleats, so no more toe clips. It's also not the fact that I was riding in running shoes, since I now have cycling shoes.

I thought I might be lacing my shoes too tight, so have worn them looser several times, no improvement.

The campus at work, where I ride, is pretty flat, and I don't ride for very long, so I hardly back off at all. I do find that if I deliberately lift my feet every couple of minutes, that helps, but I'm hoping that there's something else I can do since I only have 30-40 minutes to ride. I do pull up quite a bit on uphills, but this doesn't seem to help. The shoes have a second position for the cleats, which I'm definitely going to try.

I keep a fairly decent cadence, around 75-80, have shifters on the brakes now, so shift as frequently as needed.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. TIA.

[I.D.10-t]

I don't have anything, Never had the problem myself and a search makes it look like you have most of it covered. If it suits your purpose, you might look into renting one of the recumbent or trike bikes and see if they have cause similar problems. I'm surprised that out of the different suggestions I read on line, saddle type/position was not listed.

[benhall.1]

Cleats are great. I only have one position for mine with my shoes, but I would have thought there is only one, in any case- just under the ball of the foot.

I've never had this problem. I wonder if it could be the saddle. Do you have a nice firm, narrow saddle? I'm wondering if, if you have for instance the traditional Broooks saddle, or something with a similar shape, with the fairly broad sides, that might be cutting off some circulation. The more modern Brooks saddles, such as the Swift, have cutaways at the side which prevent this. (I'm only using Broooks as an illustration because it's easy to see what shapes I'm talking about.) If you have a gel saddle, just get rid of it, I would suggest.

[brewerpaul]

Could be that your sciatic nerve is being impinged on. A new saddle or position adjustment may make all the difference needed.

[chas]

Thanks very much for the suggestions. Saddle/saddle position hadn't occurred to me. My new saddle is very narrow with a cutout in the center rear, presumably for the tailbone. It does seem a tad low, so I'll try raising it a cm or so.

[daveboling]

You might look at your pedaling technique. If you tend to push hard as the foot comes over the top of the curve, you could be packing your toes into the front of your shoes. Try easing over the top, and doing more pull at the bottom of the stroke as the foot travels to the rear. Also, make sure there is plenty of wiggle room the in the toe box area of your shoes.

[Latticino]

I used to have this problem when riding my recumbent. It is a fairly common complaint among recumbent riders where elevated foot position and the ability to exert more force (using the "chair" back to press against rather than gravity) seems to exacerbate the situation. The only thing that helped for me was to shift my cleat position as far towards the heel as I could and make an effort to pull up as often as press down while maintaining an even cadence. That seemed to help quite a bit, but YMMV.

[Tor]

Make sure that you press your heel downwards when the foot goes down, and stretch your heel up when you pull up. Adjust (lower) saddle height as necessary if you have trouble pressing the heel down. The idea is 1) to pedal more efficiently, but also to 2) engage your calf muscles so that they're not static. This improves blood circulation, and although the most important effect of that is to greatly reduce the lactic buildup in the thigh muscles, particulary when going uphill, it may also possibly improve circulation in the foot itself. I used to do competition biking and can vote for the enormous difference it makes to pedal in this way (and it also allows you to pedal faster without starting to jump on the saddle), but I didn't really have any general problems with my toes so I can't guarantee any effect there. I sometimes had toe problems if the weather was too cold. So I would add shoe covers on cold or rainy days.

Back when you still had clips you would be able to check your technique by loosening the clips.. with the pedalling technique described above you should be able to keep the clips loose and (if you had proper shoes with a slot) still pedal efficiently. At least the pull-up part of it. But make sure you're pushing your heel down when you press down. Watch some professionals, particularly the good time trial guys. Look at how they pedal.

-Tor

[Davey J]

I think Tor means the other way round for the foot action; when the toe points down on the downstroke lift your heel up, and on the recovery part of the cycle lower your heel and pull up with the plantar surface of your foot. This is reckoned to be more efficient, and would give the calf more exercise.

You are getting older though - how is your circulation? I am now 83 and whereas I didn't formerly have trouble I now get white fingers on a ride, even in summer - Renaud's condition. My blood supply to the hands closes down some even when it shouldn't.

Good luck in solving it.

[Tor]

I think Tor means the other way round for the foot action; when the toe points down on the downstroke lift your heel up, and on the recovery part of the cycle lower your heel and pull up with the plantar surface of your foot. This is reckoned to be more efficient, and would give the calf more exercise.

No, absolutely not, I mean _down_ with the heel on the downstroke, and (a bit) _up_ with the heel on the upstroke. If you try to do it the other way around you will pedal extremely inefficiently, not a 'circular' movement at all. Again, take a good look at pro time trial cyclists. Trust me on this.. my coach training level is at level 3 (out of 4 in my country). I'm not good at the correct English terminology for cycling though.

-Tor

[chas]

Thanks for all the tips, folks. I'm definitely making progress by changing a couple of things. Part of it has been technique. The first little tingle I get in the toes, I back off for a bit, wait for a little downhill, and just pick up my feet a little, wiggle the toes, and get things flowing again.

I think the bigger part is the lacing of my shoes. Having been a runner for 40+ years, some of them as a competitive sprinter, I like my shoes tight. To an unhealthy degree evidently. So I'd clip the toe clips tight on top of the tightly laced shoes, and that was likely a large part of the problem. When I was fitted for cycling shoes, the guy at the store encouraged a loose-fitting shoe. The toe box is huge. So I laced these up as tightly as possible so that my foot wasn't sloshing around too much. I discovered on a long run a week or so ago, with new shoes on, that about an hour and a half into the run, my toes started tingling. The bulb went off. The next time I biked, I loosened the shoes a bit, and things were a lot better.

Tor and Dave B, I've been trying to implement the pedaling techniques you've suggested. They're not entirely unlike what I've always done, but the details will take some time ti incorporate.

Davey J, I do have Raynaud's. It's possible that there's some link, but the symptoms of the cycling thing are very different -- general as opposed to very localized; comes on slowly and ends rapidly, as opposed to sudden and goes away slowly.

Cheers, Charlie

[Tor]

I've been trying to implement the pedaling techniques you've suggested.

Yes, a "round" or "circulating" pedaling technique requires some practice, but it'll pay off. What you need to do is to concentrate on the movements for some time, concentrate on the technique not on speed. The trick is simply to think about pressing the heel down, and dragging the pedal up (and the change of heel position at bottom and top will facilitate the circular motion - start moving the heel down again a bit before you reach the top. And just before you reach the bottom, start lifting your heel a bit. Think of a good old steam locomotive, how it drives the wheels). After not too long it'll be unconscious. With this technique you should be able to pedal 100 cycles per minute, something which is difficult to do if you keep your foot static or move it in the wrong direction (e.g. heel up on the downstroke, we used to call it "duck style"): you'll start "jumping" in the saddle. In fact with good technique you can do much faster too (a certain Mr. Armstrong used to do 120 cycles per minute during time trials), but 100 is considered very efficient. 90 isn't bad either.

The best part though is that even all these years after I finished my cycling career, cycling uphill is _still_ easy.. no burning feeling in thigh muscles. Even if I'm in such a bad shape that _walking_ uphill is a strain. And cycling feels easy and completely natural even if I'm off it for months. I remember the time before I learned that technique: At the start of the training season the first day on the bike felt awkward. That problem also went away with the improved technique.

-Tor

[Denny]

being of a, ah, somewhat (read incredibly) lazy nature...

Yes, a "round" or "circulating" pedaling technique requires some practice, but it'll pay off.

I remember spending a lot of time, in my childhood, working on the perfect circle. (well, yeah, he is also quite obsessive )

Transitions are more work than the maintaining of output. Take this to a micro level.

[chas]

The best part though is that even all these years after I finished my cycling career, cycling uphill is _still_ easy.. no burning feeling in thigh muscles. Even if I'm in such a bad shape that _walking_ uphill is a strain.

That's my goal. I usually take a month or so off in the winter from running to let all the little things heal up. When I start up again, within a day or two I can run 4 miles/7.5k. Cycling isn't like that for me. I rode for transportation as a kid, then not for probably 10 years. When I injured myself running, I took it up in the mid-late 80's. After I bought a bike, I rode it back to work, all of probably a mile and a half/2k. I carried it up to the second floor, then when I tried to go back to the first floor, I almost fell down after the first stair from rubberlegs.

After probably another 5-10 years off, I started riding regularly again maybe 5 years ago. I hate cold weather, so I probably take 4 months off from cycling in the winter. I have a resistance trainer, but really can't spend more than about 10 minutes on it due to boredom. When I start back in the early spring, I have a lot more difficulty than I do starting back running. I think a lot of this is technique (after 40 years, I damn well know how to run), a lot of it muscle memory/fitness.

I'm hoping that within a few years, cycling will become second nature and I'll be able to pick a bike up and ride for an hour whenever I want.

Now, one of these years, I'd like to learn how to swim efficiently so I can do a triathlon. But that's a whole 'nother can o' worms.

Cheers, Charlie

[Davey J]

Chas
There's an interesting analysis of this pedalling procedure (these procedures) at:

http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/blo ... -technique

Hope it is of some help to you

PS That address did not come out in full or some reason. After "/2011/" it should read:

05/pedalling-technique