"Low Tech" Whistle question (troubleshooting)

[fearfeasog]

So, I made my first low tech today. It's a D soprano. Let's just say that I intend to make another one soon.

So my question concerns the lip, but let me describe the whistle first:

By playing around with the window length I believe I have it so it's as good as it gets in terms of balance between octaves. Really though 8ive 1 is a bit soft and 8ive 2 needs a quite a bit of air. That said--The lip is beveled as per the instructions, but I'm still not clear on the bottom edge of the lip thing. The instructions say that "If you sharpened the lower edge of the lip, you'll have to blunt it slightly with fine-grained sandpaper." Well with mine I stopped beveling before getting to the bottom edge, so there's a bit of flatness there. Where this vertical plane meets the inside curve of the bore there is an edge (90 degrees) and where said plane meets the bevel at the top of the whistle there's an edge (not as sharp and less defined, maybe 30 degrees)

does this make sense?

So how important is the lip edge to the sound? Based on my description does it seem like mine is wrong? I wonder if the whistle's problem is twofold: the edge of the lip is all wrong AND I haven't mentioned that (as it says in the troubleshooting section of the instructions) There may not be enough space under the lip. (between the fipple block and the lip, that is.)

here's the diagram of that last thing from the instructions: http://www.ggwhistles.com/howto/underlip.png

sorry for the long post. Thanks for reading!

ff

[Feadoggie]

Welcome to the forum.

You might want to read through this thread from a few days ago. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=90881 There's a lot in that thread which may apply to the issues you've described.

Have fun making your whistles.

Feadoggie

[megapop]

fearfeasog, I think you misunderstood something. Not to sharpen the lower edge does not mean to stop sharpening the top side before you reach it, but not to sharpen it from the lower side - i.e. from beneath... As long as the lower edge of the lip is in one straight line with the rest of the inside tube, everything should be fine. Uhm, now, does this make sense???

I'd bevel it as much as possible, until there is no vertical plane left anymore. This makes it much easier to switch to the 2nd 8ve.

The thread Feadoggie mentioned might be interesting for you, anyway. I'm just a novice at whistle-making, too!

[Feadoggie]

fearfeasog, I think you misunderstood something. Not to sharpen the lower edge does not mean to stop sharpening the top side before you reach it, but not to sharpen it from the lower side - i.e. from beneath... As long as the lower edge of the lip is in one straight line with the rest of the inside tube, everything should be fine. Uhm, now, does this make sense???

I'd bevel it as much as possible, until there is no vertical plane left anymore. This makes it much easier to switch to the 2nd 8ve.

The thread Feadoggie mentioned might be interesting for you, anyway. I'm just a novice at whistle-making, too!

There are lots of ways to relieve a feline of its epidermis. I frequently shape the top of the blade until I have a very small blunt edge and then work on the underside just as I thought fearfeasog was describing. Lots of things can work. There are a lot of variable in play and it's the overall result that matters. I'd suggest that we stop thinking about prescriptive ways of making the head - the "how to", the measurements, angles, etc. but concentrate on thinking about what you are trying to accomplish with the whistle head.

More than anything else, you are trying to direct a concentrated jet of air to a point that will split the air stream in such a way that pressure differentials between the inside and outside of the whistle cause the jet of air to start oscillating. To do that some air needs to go beneath the blade and some needs to go above the blade. If the balance is right the air will start to oscillate and form a stable vibration. Too much air beneath the blade and you will get nothing. Too much air above the blade - same result.

So how do you go about doing that? There are lots of ways to do it. Dr. Gonzato shows what works for him. Other methods work equally well and violate the prescriptions made by Dr. Gonzato. You need to discover what will work for you. So take a look at what you have and think about it for a while. Look at window size. Look at the plug edge. Look at the ramp again.

That said, I would suggest starting with a scenario just as megapop describes. If the bottom of the windway is lined up with the bottom of the blade and there is no edge on the plug keeping the jet from going a bit below the blade, you should get a good oscillation. If you do not then you could ease the plug edge a bit, a very tiny bit. Or you could undercut the labium a tiny bit, a very tiny bit. You could also move the plug in or out a bit, a very tiny bit. You could also move the outer mouthpiece collar in or out a bit, a very tiny bit. It is a dance of details. Small changes can make big differences.

Feadoggie

[Tunborough]

I'd bevel it as much as possible, until there is no vertical plane left anymore. This makes it much easier to switch to the 2nd 8ve.

I've actually gone the other way, and left a significant vertical plane, and found it ... guess what ... much easier to switch to the second octave. Go figure. The ramp or bevel is flat, so the edge it makes with the vertical plane is straight across. No bevel on the underside, but I do make sure I de-burr it there.

The most important aspect I've found is that the floor of the windway (top of the fipple) be only a hair lower than the base of the lip. Sighting from the end of the whistle, I aim for a sliver of light, no more, visible through the windway.

Some of the details on my dance card, anyway. Have fun.

[fearfeasog]

Hey thanks you all.

I *did* see that thread, thanks. very helpful indeed.

After I posted this question I went back and had another look at the Low Tech Whistle site and found this statement: "Again, make all edges perfectly clean. It is essential that you make the lower edge of the lip a perfectly clean and even arc. "

by this i think it is saying that the edge of the lip should be filed evenly around the curve of the arc of the whistle body...which I did not do. Obviously this whistle needs more work! I think with that mod, and some tweaks I can try on the lip edge underside (TY all for your various advice!) and cleaning up the windway edges, and maybe crafting some experimental fipple blocks, I'll get this nailed! Plenty to keep me busy.

a pic showing the lip edge:
windway by fearfeasog, on Flickr

Thanks again, yr a great buncha peeps!

[Tunborough]

Thanks for the picture.

The vertical plane showing at the end of the lip is exactly what I aim for. Lately, I've been playing with even higher vertical sections. Others will tell you to lower the bevel until there's a sharp edge in the middle of the lip. Your choice.

If that were my whistle, there are two things I'd look at. To the left hand side of the lip, there looks to be a bit of a nick in the side wall of the window. I'd like to see the side wall of the windway and window continue smoothly up the ramp of the lip until it disappears. And it may just be the perspective, but it looks like the fipple may be pushing the sides of the tube out a bit. If so, I'd want to remove a bit from the sides of the fipple to make a more gentle fit. I have a lot of trouble doing that without leaving gaps around the sides of the whistle ... something I need to work on. I'd also check that the top of the fipple wasn't too high, higher than the bottom of the lip, as noted earlier.

I love this game.

[fearfeasog]

Thanks for the picture.

The vertical plane showing at the end of the lip is exactly what I aim for. Lately, I've been playing with even higher vertical sections. Others will tell you to lower the bevel until there's a sharp edge in the middle of the lip. Your choice.

If that were my whistle, there are two things I'd look at. To the left hand side of the lip, there looks to be a bit of a nick in the side wall of the window. I'd like to see the side wall of the windway and window continue smoothly up the ramp of the lip until it disappears. And it may just be the perspective, but it looks like the fipple may be pushing the sides of the tube out a bit. If so, I'd want to remove a bit from the sides of the fipple to make a more gentle fit. I have a lot of trouble doing that without leaving gaps around the sides of the whistle ... something I need to work on. I'd also check that the top of the fipple wasn't too high, higher than the bottom of the lip, as noted earlier.

I love this game.

haha! me too!

It *IS* the perspective--crappy pone camera.

i pre sand the wooden dowel before i cut it so as to make it easier to keep it round(ish) seems to work better than holding that little teeny bit and trying to sand it without sanding my fingernails off.

also, the notch in the windway/lip area=fixed! that bugged me too.

I got a small file and beveled the lip more at its edges so as to preserve the arc. also got the hair's-breadth of space at the top of the fipple block going. makes a difference. seems to play better now, if not ideally.

my biggest problem now is this--when i took out the old block i noticed that the top of it was expanded due to the moisture of my breath. alot. so--i need to find some cork oil or similar to smear on there to make it more waterproof.

cheers, ff

[AvienMael]

You don't need to bring the bevel to a sharp edge. Depending on where your tastes lie, I've often found that following the contour of the tube for the entire width of the bevel will produce a cleaner sounding whistle, provided your window dimensions also allow for this. Also, I usually burnish the edge with a piece of hard wire to strengthen it and to make it as smooth and uniform as possible.

[Kypfer]

so--i need to find some cork oil or similar to smear on there to make it more waterproof.

... beeswax will do a good job, and it won't dry out. Beeswax is also good if the wood block is ever so slightly too small sometimes, it'll "glue" the wood to the plastic tube, acting as a sealant, but still leaves it (re)moveable, should you want to

[chrisp]

Hi,

I've made a few fipple blocks from wood some good, some bad. I'm lucky enough to have a friend who turns a solid length of plastic on a metal lathe to the exact dimensions to the inner bore of the plastic pipe. This ensures that the floor of the wind-way is no higher than the underside of the lip, and being made of plastic does not swell like a wooden fipple block.

I also remember a few years back someone suggesting casting your own length of fipple block (perhaps that was feadoggie?) using a greased up length of the same tubing. Some sort of non poisonous epoxy resin can be filled into a greased length of pipe and allowed to harden. The pipe mold can then be cut away and discarded.

These fipple blocks do not swell with moisture and also create a very smooth/shiny floor to the wind-way, and I believe help the sound of the instrument. If the fipple block is exactly the same diameter as the inside bore of the tubing, then we at least know that the floor of the wind-way can't be any higher than that. Minute adjustments already mentioned earlier can then be tried.

[Feadoggie]

I also remember a few years back someone suggesting casting your own length of fipple block (perhaps that was feadoggie?) using a greased up length of the same tubing.

Yep, that would have been me more than likely. Here are some of my early CPVC whistles with cast plugs.



I once outlined the process I use to cast the plugs in this thread. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=53075

Feadoggie

[fearfeasog]

great stuff, everyone! feadoggie, you're a bit mad, aren't you? those whistles look splendid from what I can see.

What's the screw/bolt in the side of the mouthpiece? does that go all the way through?

I may just try that molding-your-own-rod thing. sounds like a bit of work up front but well worth it in the end.

AvienMael: I like the burnishing idea. What sort of wire do you use?

I'm starting whistle number two today--another D. So far it's coming out incrementally better than the first. I think the windway walls and lip ramp are neater and i managed to get a slightly better block by putting a length of dowel in a drill with a 1/2 chuck (I've heard that mentioned elsewhere) and using a sanding block to "lathe" it to size. I'm using a miter saw to do the cutting. It's a bit much--sometimes ruins the peice altogether. I'm prioritizing my fingers--dowels are cheaper. I'll have to play with cutting blocks by hand saw. i need a miter box.

Thanks for continuing to give great advice, everyone!

[Feadoggie]

feadoggie, you're a bit mad, aren't you?

Yes, I suppose so! You're not the first one to make that observation.

What's the screw/bolt in the side of the mouthpiece? does that go all the way through?

Well, that's a miniature solar powered LED (light emitting doohickey), of course. It actually holds the mouthpiece components together. I use different colors to distinguish the different keys. It's become sort of a trademark on my plastic whistles.

Have fun making your whistles.

Feadoggie

[fearfeasog]

feadoggie, you're a bit mad, aren't you?

Yes, I suppose so! You're not the first one to make that observation.

What's the screw/bolt in the side of the mouthpiece? does that go all the way through?

Well, that's a miniature solar powered LED (light emitting doohickey), of course. It actually holds the mouthpiece components together. I use different colors to distinguish the different keys. It's become sort of a trademark on my plastic whistles.

Have fun making your whistles.

Feadoggie

Thanks I will! but before you go...

What "release agent" do you use in the tube for the molding, and is there a brand of epoxy you like and works well that you'd care to share the brand name of?