Can you play a C song in D?

[Dansails]

I have to admit, music theory is simple in some respects, and then becomes quite confusing when you limit the notes (as on a whistle) and throw in some sharps and flats. I still like to see something on paper once in a while, but find myself humming songs and picking up a whistle. I think that is some of the beauty and art of playing the little stick with holes in it....

[gregwhistle]

I get what you're saying but I'd still argue transposing in your head is an acquired skill that not everyone can master. I've known some musically talented people who have a difficult time pulling that off without making mistakes that should be obvious to them (I have stories). At any rate, until the OP understands keys and how whistles relate to keys, that advice still runs the risk of leaving HER (I read ahead) scratching her head and wondering why she can't find the right notes on her whistle.

Yep, everyone's brain works differently.

In fact, if you get the "real" tune in your head "realistically" enough, you'll know you are playing the "wrong" notes if you transpose ... eek

[Denny]

Yep, everyone's brain works differently.

mine doesn't like to work...

transposing in yer head is a learned skill. If ya know the tune you should be able to play it starting anywhere. Assuming yer whatever yer playin' has the notes ya need. This is much more of an issue with whistle than, say, piano...

[JTC111]

I have to admit, music theory is simple in some respects, and then becomes quite confusing when you limit the notes (as on a whistle) and throw in some sharps and flats.

Especially to a beginner who may not have a full understanding of the relationship between notes of any given key ...although, I know of at least one instrument that musical beginners can play with some confidence: the Appalachian Mountain Dulcimer. You have to really hunt to find a bad note on one of those if you tune them to DAA, DAD, or something similar. A person can sound pretty good on those the first day.

Yep, everyone's brain works differently.

In fact, if you get the "real" tune in your head "realistically" enough, you'll know you are playing the "wrong" notes if you transpose ... eek

...and there's the segue to a story.
I have a friend who's a long time musician. He played lead guitar in some rock/punk bands in the 70s that were playing various NYC area venues like CBGB and the like. He was also a huge Dylan fan and was writing folk songs in that vein. We've been friends since the late 80s and had performed together on a few occasions as a folk duo, although he's since moved to Arizona. About 6-7 years back, he wanted to record some of his songs and I volunteered my home studio.

So he flies in and we're working on his stuff and he's getting excited because I'm adding drum tracks, bass tracks, etc. to his songs and they're really starting to sparkle. We were working on the vocal chorus for one tune and the way he's singing it is kind of killing the energy of the song so I suggested a simple change ...a change of one note, the last in the line. I sang to him what I had in mind; he loved it and immediately heard the way the energy was maintained going into the next line.

I don't remember exactly what the change was, but it was something like instead of going from a G down to a C, I had him go from the G up to an A. Nothing too complicated. Well, we must've made 40-50 attempts at that change but he just couldn't get his brain to make it happen. From take to take he was never sure if he'd even gone up or down with the note. I tried a variety of tricks to coax it out of him but every time we recorded it, he'd go down instead of up. In the end, I recorded him singing it without the music playing in his ears and a few attempts that way yielded something we could use, but it was a real struggle getting there. I wound up copying and pasting it into the other choruses so we wouldn't have to go through that again. This guy was a talented musician, a great guitar player, but getting his brain to adjust that one note was damn near impossible for some reason. So yeah, our brains absolutely work differently.

[Dreamer]

I get what you're saying but I'd still argue transposing in your head is an acquired skill that not everyone can master. I've known some musically talented people who have a difficult time pulling that off without making mistakes that should be obvious to them (I have stories).

You have a very good point. While I believe that it would be better to work on paper it is also a good idea to get a feel for the melody first, I want to make sure that I am always staying true to the song.

I have to admit, music theory is simple in some respects, and then becomes quite confusing when you limit the notes (as on a whistle) and throw in some sharps and flats. I still like to see something on paper once in a while, but find myself humming songs and picking up a whistle. I think that is some of the beauty and art of playing the little stick with holes in it....

The limitation of the notes is what I find the most difficult about the whistle.

[mutepointe]

This guy was a talented musician, a great guitar player, but getting his brain to adjust that one note was damn near impossible for some reason. So yeah, our brains absolutely work differently.

Although I played the guitar and keyboards for years, learning single note wind instruments taught me so much about music theory. I think I know how this guy's brain didn't work. My brain didn't work b.w.i (before wind instruments) either.

[Feadoggie]

This guy was a talented musician, a great guitar player, but getting his brain to adjust that one note was damn near impossible for some reason. So yeah, our brains absolutely work differently.

My guess is that since it was his song, that was what was in his mind and not the revised melody. He was playing/singing the song in his head as he heard it. That's what he was invested in.

Feadoggie

[JTC111]

This guy was a talented musician, a great guitar player, but getting his brain to adjust that one note was damn near impossible for some reason. So yeah, our brains absolutely work differently.

My guess is that since it was his song, that was what was in his mind and not the revised melody. He was playing/singing the song in his head as he heard it. That's what he was invested in.

Feadoggie

Maybe, but would it really take you 40-50 takes to change one note? I'm not exaggerating that number ...but in fairness, after about the 25th-30th take he started hitting the note about half the time but when he did, he'd lose the timing completely ...and he'd only lose the timing if he hit the note I wanted. It was pretty damn frustrating for both of us.

[JTC111]

This guy was a talented musician, a great guitar player, but getting his brain to adjust that one note was damn near impossible for some reason. So yeah, our brains absolutely work differently.

Although I played the guitar and keyboards for years, learning single note wind instruments taught me so much about music theory. I think I know how this guy's brain didn't work. My brain didn't work b.w.i (before wind instruments) either.

Can you expound on that? I went in the same direction but I found chord theory to be the most difficult thing to tackle. I think it was MTGuru/John that mentioned the Ted Greene book, Chord Chemistry... that book still scares me and I haven't looked at it in more than a decade.

[DCrom]

The brain works in strange ways. How many of us can't remember a tune at all - totally unable to start it it - but can pick it up and play along if someone plays the first measure or so?

I'm really bad at that - at any time, I might only have at most couple of dozen tunes I can easily start, but a much larger number I can play along with (or start, after jogging my memory by hearing it the first time).

But I also have the related affliction of being able to transfer from one tune to another if they share a few common measures. This one I usually have more control over, but if I play when I'm tired and not thinking clearly I sometimes find myself playing pieces of two or three tunes as a medley. Which would be fine if I *meant* to do that, but . . .

[Feadoggie]

Maybe, but would it really take you 40-50 takes to change one note? I'm not exaggerating that number ...but in fairness, after about the 25th-30th take he started hitting the note about half the time but when he did, he'd lose the timing completely ...and he'd only lose the timing if he hit the note I wanted. It was pretty damn frustrating for both of us.

Yes, I am sure it was frustrating at the time. And you probably had some good laughs. But 40-50 takes on one day or so may pale in comparison to the number of times he had sung the song his way either aloud or in his mind. How old was the song?

I know I would write a song and for whatever reason set it aside for 10-15 years. Then when it was brought out again and presented to a producer they would suggest a change that seemed simple and obvious to them but the old patterns can still be set in stone in the head, the heart and soul.

And that is what others are suggesting here, I think. Set the song in your head, heart and soul. Kids do that very early with songs and rhymes - and sometimes they even get them right. Mary had a little jam. My eyes have seen the gory of the coming of the Ford. And so on.

But you are right that different folks have different minds for music. I've worked with plenty of singers that could only "sing it the way they learned it". And it still amazes me how many well trained musicians cannot improvise or harmonize or hear the chord changes at all. Makes life interesting, doesn't it?

Feadoggie

[mutepointe]

This guy was a talented musician, a great guitar player, but getting his brain to adjust that one note was damn near impossible for some reason. So yeah, our brains absolutely work differently.

Although I played the guitar and keyboards for years, learning single note wind instruments taught me so much about music theory. I think I know how this guy's brain didn't work. My brain didn't work b.w.i (before wind instruments) either.

Can you expound on that? I went in the same direction but I found chord theory to be the most difficult thing to tackle. I think it was MTGuru/John that mentioned the Ted Greene book, Chord Chemistry... that book still scares me and I haven't looked at it in more than a decade.

Oh, I no longer play the keyboards but I played the keyboard and play the guitar strictly by sheet music. I only have the most minimal and basic songs memorized on those instruments and it took a whole bunch of effort. I only have a basic knowledge of guitar chords. I can play guitar chords on the keyboards or guitar but I have no clue what is going on with them. I have a boatload of guitar chords memorized. I have no clue how to put them together myself. If I have to play a song with a guitar chord that I do not know, I either cheat and play something close that sounds OK or transpose into a simpler key. Amazingly, I can sight transpose.

After I learned wind instruments, I was stuck waiting in my car one day with a whistle and no sheet music. I had an hour wait. I needed to practice a song and I remembered the first few notes, so I tried that and was dumbstruck that I could pick out the tune. Then I realized that I could pick out all kinds of songs that I had stuck in my brain.

After this, I realized that I could read the sheet music and extract and play something besides the melody on a wind instrument. That was all pretty cool. I still can't do anything like that on the guitar or keyboard at all.

[Angel Shadowsong]

Newbie question. Sorry, I'm still pretty new to sheet music.

Most songs are written in the key of C right? Can you play a song written in the key of C on a whistle in the key of D? Would it sound that much different? Would I have to change the notes if I recorded keyboard and/or guitar along with it?

Hi Dreamer,

Most songs are not in the key of C.

There are 2 notations used by Sight Readers/Writers,

Sight Readers or writers use either a "fixed DO" or a "movable DO"

A fixed DO use C as DO (in Do-re-mi), they accidentals (flat/sharp/natural) in the staff as their key signature is always C.


A movable DO is varying depending on they Key Signature.
Example if the said song is in the Key of D, then the DO is D
if it is in E, then the DO is E.


Basically the notes in both method are the same sound, but the reference naming is Different.

Example:

In Fixed DO method (but in Key of D)

D= RE
E= MI
F#= FA Sharp
G= SOL
A= LA
B= TI(si)
C#=DO Sharp

If Reading in a Staff, you will always See a C with a Strike though beside the G-Clef
and there are no sharps beside the G-clef.
These fixed do method is usually practiced by Chorales or voice.

I often hear Voice Majors/Choirs say FA Sharp (referring to F-Sharp and)
DO Sharp (referring to C-Sharp), and DO (for C Natural), (Please note that some prefer flat instead Sharp)

I asked a Tenor in our choir about his highest note that you can sing. He answered "LA" on the second space
(LA referring to A4 natural)


The movable DO method is different
Example: Movable DO in Key of C AND D

Key of C:

C=DO
D=RE
E=MI
F=FA
G=SOL
A=LA
B=TI(SI)

Key of D:

D=DO
E=RE
F#=MI
G=FA
A=SOL
B=LA
C#=TI(SI)

The importance of this is to give a guide on
the Role of Rest Notes & Tension Notes (which is very useful in Chord Progressions, for instrument using chords like piano, guitar etc)

Rest Notes:
Root Note/Tonic (Do)
Mediant (Mi)
Dominant (Sol)

Tension Notes:
Leading Tone (Ti)
Supertonic (Re)
Subdominant( Fa)
Submediant (La)

Should I just get a whistle in the key of C? (Only have Clarke original D right now)

It depends.

In the playing by Sight (or Sight Reading/Playing)

You must first determine ALL the keys that a song/composition will go including the range from lowest notes to highest note that a song that will be played USING THE SIGHT-READ METHOD


Then determine the range of the instrument.

Example 1: A song/Composition is in Key of C

The lowest note to be played is C4 (middle C)
Highest note to be played is A5 (2 ledger lines above the fifth line on the G-Staff)

The whistle that will fit there is the C whistle.
as the Common Range of C whistle is C4-C6

You can not use a D whistle here are the D whistle range is D4-D6.
You may need to transpose the C4 to a C5 raising the tonic note to a higher tonic note, but it may give a different feel.

Test if it does and if it does not you may use the D whistle here but a problem is the note F natural.
You can solve the note F natural by half-holing the E hole


Example 2: A song/Composition is in Key of C


The lowest note to be played is D4 ( D above middle C)
Highest note to be played is D6 (note above3 ledger lines above the fifth line on the G-Staff)

You can use a D whistle in this as the lowest note is D
However the problem is the note F. You can solve this problem by half holing the E-hole.



Good luck with the Sight Reading


IMO, Sight-read is different from playing by ear alot.

Based on my experience,

Playing by sight gives advantage on accuracy, while playing by ear is by trial and error.
Playing by sight gives an advantage also in teaching and accurate tuning reference.

Playing by ear has advantage on, muscle memory, retention, speed and the FEELING.

Playing by sight, makes you a background musician....while playing by ear makes you a SOLOIST



Hope this help you.

Regards,

Angel

[mutepointe]

When I sight read and need to transpose, I don't use either of those systems, I didn't even understand either of those systems. Once I figure out how far a move is for the notes to be in the key that I play, I watch the notes on the page "float" to the right place on the scale.

[Angel Shadowsong]

When I sight read and need to transpose, I don't use either of those systems, I didn't even understand either of those systems. Once I figure out how far a move is for the notes to be in the key that I play, I watch the notes on the page "float" to the right place on the scale.

I understand the feeling of FLOAT.

However, it depends on the instrument that you use. If you transpose say C to D on a piano, you will then need to press the black keys, in which a fingering technique change will be involved.

Its like typing the QWERTYUIOP keys when you press the black keys, there is a feeling that you lift your fingers from the ASDFGHJKL;
keys.

There will be a minor lag in your brain when you transpose, but after getting the feel and the sound, it will definitely float.

I dont know in the guitar, violin, it may be a different string to press.

However, in a C whistle transposing to D whistle, you will use the same fingering and the music will definitely be the same, thus the same feel

Regards,
Angel