Struggling with high-end notes

[Trawler]

As a beginnger, I was dead chuffed when I mastered high G. High B followed, and high A, though on my whistles it occasionally sounds horribly squeaky - it requires pressure and force to get it right.

Therefore imagine my horror when I realised there were TWO notes above that B - C and D! With strange and unusual fingering! I do not like it!

Does anyone have any tips on good technique to get those upper notes? Or can recommend good whistles to help me? I have 3 Meg's, a Clarke with a wooden mouthpiece, and a Feadog.


Thanks!
-Trawler

[Peter Duggan]

Therefore imagine my horror when I realised there were TWO notes above that B - C and D! With strange and unusual fingering! I do not like it!

You know there are many more above that?

Does anyone have any tips on good technique to get those upper notes?

Experience and control (which often come together).

[Trawler]

You know there are many more above that?

No. No, I didn't know that. *goes away and cries*

My beginner's scale only went up to that top D.


-Trawler

[Peter Duggan]

No. No, I didn't know that. *goes away and cries*

Best just dry those eyes now because 'core' range is basically two octaves and most folk rarely go higher. And things that may seem (almost?) out of control now should eventually become second nature.

[DrPhill]

As a beginnger, I was dead chuffed when I mastered high G. High B followed, and high A, though on my whistles it occasionally sounds horribly squeaky - it requires pressure and force to get it right.

Therefore imagine my horror when I realised there were TWO notes above that B - C and D! With strange and unusual fingering! I do not like it!

Does anyone have any tips on good technique to get those upper notes? Or can recommend good whistles to help me? I have 3 Meg's, a Clarke with a wooden mouthpiece, and a Feadog.

I play almost exclusively low D and only rarely need to reach those notes. I have recently been making use of the second harmonic to do so. If you overblow the second D you will get an A, so
D --> A
E --> B
F --> C#
G --> D

On my whistle (Copeland) this works better for me, for this tune, for my stage of development. I actually play a phrase using the second harmonic starting and ending on the B (BCDCB) even though I normally use the standard B in other places, because this way the transition between B and C# is much smoother.

There will probably be someone along soon to tell me that I am wrong, though.

[MTGuru]

F# --> C#

A minor correction.

There are a few tunes where I sometimes switch to harmonics instead of fingering the upper notes, to facilitate playing. Can't think of what they are offhand, but I know them when I play them. Problem is that the harmonics often need tonguing or a breath push to sound, so the phrasing has to allow for that.

[killthemessenger]

I play almost exclusively low D and only rarely need to reach those notes. I have recently been making use of the second harmonic to do so. If you overblow the second D you will get an A, so
D --> A
E --> B
F# --> C#
G --> D

Kudos. I wouldn't use them in a tune, but your control of the low whistle is far superior to mine. I'm surprised that this would work so well on a conical bored instrument.

Just one question - I have to use the closed second octave D (i.e. without the top hole vented) to achieve the harmonic A - what do you do?

One thing that does make high notes easier to play - and lets you play them softer than their first octave equivalents - is to pinch (slightly vent) the top hole. This sharpens them so you have to reduce air pressure to bring them into tune. It takes some practice, but I've found it can improve phrasing in slow tunes.

[DrPhill]

F# --> C#

A minor correction.

Thanks - I remembered while I was walking the dogs, but you beat me to it. I knew it looked wrong at the time - but I wasted my time confirming it was C#.

[DrPhill]

Just one question - I have to use the closed second octave D (i.e. without the top hole vented) to achieve the harmonic A - what do you do?

I think that you will find that the theory requires it. The vented D is a 'fundamental' note, so its next harmonic will be D an octave higher still. Unvented D is a first harmonic, so overblowing it will give a A (which is some musical relationship up, but you know I am ignorant of the theory).

[killthemessenger]

A fifth.

[Peter Duggan]

I think that you will find that the theory requires it.

But I think that you won't.

The vented D is a 'fundamental' note, so its next harmonic will be D an octave higher still. Unvented D is a first harmonic, so overblowing it will give a A (which is some musical relationship up, but you know I am ignorant of the theory).

The vented D is a (vented) first harmonic because your fundamentals end at all-fingers-off C# and you can't shorten the tube any further by sticking five fingers back on! So the reason you're unable to overblow it to an intermediate A is simply because the full-finger vent won't let you.

[DrPhill]

Ok, Peter, we differ here. Let me put my case more exactly, and then see if we are closer to agreeing.....

Let us assume that we are playing a standard D whistle (D5 587hz).

Playing a vented D (D6) is a 'fundamental' in as much as you cannot blow any softer and get a note an octave down. With the configuration of holes oxxxxx the D6 is the lowest note that you can get. Some part of the tube (either labium to T1 or T1 to bell end) is supporting a vibrating air column at D6. That this coincidentally happens to be the octave of the bell note is irrelevant. In fact it is precisely the point of venting to get a purer D6. A lot of the problems of clarity in the unvented D6 are caused by the D5 fundamental stealing some of the energy and polluting the D6. The vented D6, being a fundamental, does not suffer from this 'pollution' by D5.

If you cannot agree with me that the vented D6 is a fundamental, then we shall have to 'agree to differ', and you can ignore the rest of my argument.

If you can agree with me, then it becomes obvious why overblowing the vented D6 does not give an A, but a D7 if you are lucky. I say 'if you are lucky' because the physics of the whistle are only accidentally set up so that venting causes a D6. T1 is situated very close to, but not accurately at, the midpoint of the whistle. I think that this inaccuracy is magnified by overblowing. On all my (low) whistles it is an unpleasant experience. I will not even try on a high whistle.

[MTGuru]

If you cannot agree with me that the vented D6 is a fundamental, then we shall have to 'agree to differ', and you can ignore the rest of my argument.

Sorry, Phill, but I think Peter is basically right. The fingering doesn't change the physics of the tube. By venting the D, you're simply tapping the bore at (approximately) an antinode, thus preventing any waveforms that would present a node at that position from sounding. That includes the next harmonic A, which is in a 3:2 ratio (= 3:1 ratio to the fundamental). But whether you vent the second octave D or not, there are still 2 half-waves present in the tube for that note, so it's not a fundamental.

then it becomes obvious why overblowing the vented D6 does not give an A, but a D7 if you are lucky.

Actually, the above description is what makes it obvious. The A is blocked, but the next octave harmonic at an even 4:1 ratio (your D7) again places an antinode under the vent.

[DrPhill]

If you cannot agree with me that the vented D6 is a fundamental, then we shall have to 'agree to differ', and you can ignore the rest of my argument.

Sorry, Phill, but Peter is basically right. The fingering doesn't change the physics of the tube. By venting the D, you're simply tapping the bore at (approximately) an antinode, thus preventing any waveforms that would present a node at that position from sounding. That includes the next harmonic A, which is in a 3:2 ratio (= 3:1 ratio to the fundamental). But whether you vent the second octave D or not, there are still 2 half-waves present in the tube for that note, so it's not a fundamental.

then it becomes obvious why overblowing the vented D6 does not give an A, but a D7 if you are lucky.

Actually, the above description is what makes it obvious. The A is blocked, but the next octave harmonic at an even 4:1 ratio (your D7) again places an antinode under the vent.

Hmmmm, I do not like to disagree with the Guru, but I think we are using the term fundamental in slightly different terms, and perhaps that is the seat of the argument.

If the tube were only half as long, then we would agree what the fundamental is. The ends of the tube are forced to be antinodes and the vibration occurs between them. When we vent the tube and force an antinode at (approximately) the middle we are doing the same as if we were shortening the tube. It is just that we have two tubes joined together at that antinode point.

The note is 'fundamental' in as much as there is no lower vibration possible in that configuration. Unlike the unvented D6 which can drop to a D5. The fingering does change the physics of the tube - that is why we do it!


Now, that is probably all playing with words..... what matters is the effect. If we assume that my explanation is correct- that the vented D is a fundamental - then the notes that you will get are: D6, D7, A7........

Assume that your explanation is correct - that while the note is not a fundamental, certain harmonic overtones are prevented by the placement of the antinode. Then certain notes will issue: D6, D7, A7.......

So we agree in everything except the definition of 'fundamental'.

[Peter Duggan]

The note is 'fundamental' in as much as there is no lower vibration possible in that configuration. Unlike the unvented D6 which can drop to a D5. The fingering does change the physics of the tube - that is why we do it!

So you'd class a pinched note on a recorder as a fundamental because pinching the thumb hole prevents any 'lower vibration'?

So we agree in everything except the definition of 'fundamental'.

That's because there is only one and the vented D is a harmonic!