Newbie question

[JTC111]

The explanatory problem is that there are 4 different independent variables:

1. The "key" of the tune or song.
2. The "key" of the whistle you're playing.
3. The "key" of the fingering you're using.
4. The "key" of the concert pitch you're producing.

So what we really need is a Whistlers' Department of Nomenclature.

[MTGuru]

So what we really need is a Whistlers' Department of Nomenclature.

Then there are the "keys" of an instrument with keys. Who made this stuff up anyway?

[Peter Duggan]

Dunno who made it up but I know who's always trying to explain to unsuspecting school pupils that (for example) C can be a key (as in C major, not your 'long C'), scale, chord or whatever (thank goodness I rarely have to 'teach' transposing instruments!), a work in C can have movements in other keys, a movement or melody in C can modulate to other keys, you get minor chords in major keys and major chords in minor keys and, well, you get the drift (?)...

[cutterpup]

Then there are the "keys" of an instrument with keys. Who made this stuff up anyway?

Since the "keys" on my instruments with keys don't open any locks or serve a purpose other than as finger extensions I think thay can safely be considered non-keys. But if removed is the instrument now off key?

[JTC111]

But if removed is the instrument now off key?

How can a key-less instrument be off-key?

[DrPhill]

Dunno who made it up but I know who's always trying to explain to unsuspecting school pupils that (for example) C can be a key (as in C major, not your 'long C'), scale, chord or whatever (thank goodness I rarely have to 'teach' transposing instruments!), a work in C can have movements in other keys, a movement or melody in C can modulate to other keys, you get minor chords in major keys and major chords in minor keys and, well, you get the drift (?)...

I think that the perfect here is the enemy of the good.

When I crossed this 'pons asinorum' all I really needed to know was:

(1) If you use 'standard' fingerings the tune comes out in D on a D whistle, C on a C whistle, Bb on a Bb whistle etc.
(2) To make it easy we write all whistle music as if we were playing a D whistle, and then just choose the whistle that comes out in the right key.
(3) We tend to name the 'standard' fingerings for the notes they produce on a D whistle. Even when we are talking about a whistle that is not in D.
(4) This all leads to some confusion, but it will all make sense soon.

More than 25 words, and it does not address G, B minor, E minor...... but I did not need to know any of that, then. And if I did I could infer it.

[Peter Duggan]

I think that the perfect here is the enemy of the good.

When I crossed this 'pons asinorum' all I really needed to know was:

But I have to teach this stuff, Phil...

(1) If you use 'standard' fingerings the tune comes out in D on a D whistle

Define 'standard'!

[DrPhill]

I think that the perfect here is the enemy of the good.

When I crossed this 'pons asinorum' all I really needed to know was:

But I have to teach this stuff, Phil...

I did not mean to pick on you personally, Peter, and I apologise if it seemed that way. I was merely trying to say that the problem initially posed by the OP could be answered simply, if not completely (but not within the 25 word limit). Any simple explanation will, by definition, be incomplete. Complete explanations will of course be dauntingly complex (and possibly contentious). My understanding of this topic is poor, but I understand enough to get by, and I still remember what it was like to get to grips with this arcane topic. What I needed was small. bite size chunks of information that I could digest. A warning that this was a simplification would not have scared me off.

You have the luxury when teaching of having face to face contact, and being able to pick up whistles and demonstrate. On this forum we have neither, and so have to customise such teaching that we do. I have learnt a huge amount here, but it has always been the simplified explanations that helped me most.

(1) If you use 'standard' fingerings the tune comes out in D on a D whistle

Define 'standard'!

xxxxxx = d
xxxxxo = e
........... etc

[cutterpup]

When I crossed this 'pons asinorum' all I really needed to know was:

(1) If you use 'standard' fingerings the tune comes out in D on a D whistle, C on a C whistle, Bb on a Bb whistle etc.
(2) To make it easy we write all whistle music as if we were playing a D whistle, and then just choose the whistle that comes out in the right key.
(3) We tend to name the 'standard' fingerings for the notes they produce on a D whistle. Even when we are talking about a whistle that is not in D.
(4) This all leads to some confusion, but it will all make sense soon.

More than 25 words, and it does not address G, B minor, E minor...... but I did not need to know any of that, then. And if I did I could infer it.

Yet I have been told that the above is not true unless the tune is transposed to the key of D. This is what has lead to much confusion and the reasking of the same question, and not just by me. I have done a search on traspostion and it returned 59 pages. And a lot of threads contain wording to the same effect of what you wrote or to "play by ear till it sounds right" Only in this thread where i was a pest did the fact that the tune needs to be TRANSPOSED to the key od D first became clear. Otherwise if I followed number 1 above I would now be happily playing tunes on my G whistle using G music and fingering as if it is a D whistle (XXXXXX=D) that comes out in C and thinking that my whistle has magically transformed the music to G when in fact it hasn't.

[JTC111]

Otherwise if I followed number 1 above I would now be happily playing tunes on my G whistle using G music and fingering as if it is a D whistle (XXXXXX=D) that comes out in C and thinking that my whistle has magically transformed the music to G when in fact it hasn't.

The way you say it, you make it sound like it would be wrong to do so. There's a good chance that the G sheet music you're looking at was intended to be played on a D whistle. Take a look at any beginner's whistle book and you're going to find just about all the tunes are written in D or G but no one is told to run out and get a G whistle to play the G tunes; they're meant to be played on a D whistle.

[cutterpup]

Otherwise if I followed number 1 above I would now be happily playing tunes on my G whistle using G music and fingering as if it is a D whistle (XXXXXX=D) that comes out in C and thinking that my whistle has magically transformed the music to G when in fact it hasn't.

The way you say it, you make it sound like it would be wrong to do so. There's a good chance that the G sheet music you're looking at was intended to be played on a D whistle. Take a look at any beginner's whistle book and you're going to find just about all the tunes are written in D or G but no one is told to run out and get a G whistle to play the G tunes; they're meant to be played on a D whistle.

You are missing my point entirely. I play G tunes nicely on my D whistle but that has nothing to do do with what I posted.
My point is that telling new players that they just need to switch whistles to switch keys without telling them that this only works when playing music in the key of D adds to the confusion and asking of the same question.

[hoopy mike]

You are missing my point entirely. I play G tunes nicely on my D whistle but that has nothing to do do with what I posted.
My point is that telling new players that they just need to switch whistles to switch keys without telling them that this only works when playing music in the key of D adds to the confusion and asking of the same question.

I don't think that advice will help many people, at least not how you've expressed it. Ok - here's my attempt at a short explanation:

The "standard" D whistle will play tunes in D and G major without having to half-hole. If you want to play a tune in a different major key, you'll probably need another whistle.

[Peter Duggan]

I did not mean to pick on you personally, Peter, and I apologise if it seemed that way.

No apology needed, Phill, but perhaps I'd better just make it clear I'd intended my post as a light-hearted response to the preceding one by MTGuru rather than an illuminating contribution to the main whistle key/fingering/transposition discussion...

Complete explanations will of course be dauntingly complex (and possibly contentious).

Although (joking apart), my experience of teaching all this other stuff tends to back up the gist of the thread (ie you either get it or you don't and those who don't are struggling with mountains and molehills)!

You have the luxury when teaching of having face to face contact, and being able to pick up whistles and demonstrate.

Only rarely whistles at work, actually (but instruments in general, for sure)...

I have learnt a huge amount here, but it has always been the simplified explanations that helped me most.

So just ignore me when I'm reacting to the Guru!

(1) If you use 'standard' fingerings the tune comes out in D on a D whistle

Define 'standard'!

xxxxxx = d
xxxxxo = e
........... etc

Ah, E Dorian...




Or A Mixolydian...




Or...

[jiminos]

i have to say that i have seen some absolutely brilliant explanations of how/why the whistle is a transposing instrument in this thread. simply brilliant. if there remains any confusion at this point, it is (imho) because the individuals not understanding are trying to make it wayyyyyyyyy too hard.

here is my approach.... i try to keep it simple, cuz that is how my brain works... simply...

if you are playing a tune in D on a D whistle.... you are in D.
if you play this same tune with no changes to the fingering on a C whistle, you are in C.
if you play this same tune with no changes to the fingering on a Bb whistle, you are in Bb.

if you are playing a tune in G on a D whistle... you are in G.
if you play this same tune with no changes to the fingering on a G whistle, you are in C.
if you play this same tune with no changes to the fingering on a C whistle, you are in F.
if you play this same tune with no changes to the fingering on a Bb whistle, you are in Eb.

if you are playing a tune in Bm on a D whistle, you are in Bm.
if you play this same tune with no changes on a G whistle, you are in Em.
if you play this same tune with no changes on a C whistle, you are in Am.

etc.. etc... etc...

this is how i look at it, and it works for me.... it is simplified, and i am not thinking modes here.... just the basic keys, cuz that's how i play... i tend to think in just the basic keys... when modes pop up.... i scratch my head a lot.... then i go play. i am a simple guy. i play a simple instrument. (but i keep in mind that amazing music can be made with that silly little pipe) it can be, like all things in life, as simple or as complicated as you would like it to be.... i choose simple.

choose wisely,

be well,

jim

[DrPhill]

here is my approach.... i try to keep it simple, cuz that is how my brain works... simply...

if you are playing a tune in D on a D whistle.... you are in D.
if you play this same tune with no changes to the fingering on a C whistle, you are in C.
if you play this same tune with no changes to the fingering on a Bb whistle, you are in Bb.

if you are playing a tune in G on a D whistle... you are in G.
if you play this same tune with no changes to the fingering on a G whistle, you are in C.
if you play this same tune with no changes to the fingering on a C whistle, you are in F.
if you play this same tune with no changes to the fingering on a Bb whistle, you are in Eb.

if you are playing a tune in Bm on a D whistle, you are in Bm.
if you play this same tune with no changes on a G whistle, you are in Em.
if you play this same tune with no changes on a C whistle, you are in Am.

etc.. etc... etc...

this is how i look at it, and it works for me....