Thoughts on copper vs aluminum whistle

[mboswell]

Greetings all.
I have been researching the differences between copper and aluminum whistles. As I understand it, copper is a bit more mellow than aluminum. Having a copper whistle with a delrin fipple might decrease moisture buildup. It seems like the differences in sound between the two can be minor, depending more on the dimensions than the type of material.
Thoughts?
Thanks,
Michael

[RonKiley]

I prefer aluminum. I just don't like copper. No reason I just prefer aluminum.

[Feadoggie]

I have been researching the differences between copper and aluminum whistles. As I understand it, copper is a bit more mellow than aluminum. Having a copper whistle with a delrin fipple might decrease moisture buildup. It seems like the differences in sound between the two can be minor, depending more on the dimensions than the type of material.

There's a lot of mythology running around like that. I have said this elsewhere today, the material is of little consequence to the sound of a whistle. It does have more to do with design of the whistle and the skill of the maker in executing the design. Yes certain materials will lend themselves to achieving different design goals. A brass tube can have a thinner wall thickness than a wooden tube for instance. But if you took copper, silver, aluminum, brass and platinum finger tubes made to the same spec and fitted the same head to them, they would sound quite similar. The sound comes mostly from the dimensions of head design and the dimensions of the bore of the tube. Go get some tubing, drill some holes and see what happens. That's what I did.

Now I know others will disagree with my views so lets hear what they think.

Feadoggie

[ecohawk]

Actually Feadoggie, I'm going to upset you by agreeing! But I'd like to embellish just to see if you agree.

I have several instruments made of copper. I can safely say, based on my own personal experience, that the only two material related differences I can hear in basic whistle tone are metal and wood. Artificial materials, plastics, pvc, delrin; etc., are not distinguishable from the others. Thickness of material makes the biggest difference IMO, thin materials resonate and more interesting IMO. Thicker whistles can be attractive for those needing volume or often a "rounder" fuller tone. Fipple, labium design is next primarily because it effects purity of sound, breath requirements and, to some extent, volume.

I own the Burke narrow bore whistles in Aluminum, Brass and Composite. Burke's composite is unique but very thin. It sounds a little like wood to me but on many tunes, you can't tell the difference between these whistles. I also own Jerry Gen's in brass and nickel, both in D and Bb and I can't tell the difference in them by barrel type. I can switch the heads and see enough difference that I could identify it.

I don't think I'd use material as a deciding factor specifically. I look for a design and the material decisions are only related to cosmetics or specific use.

But that's me.

[AvienMael]

I strongly disagree. Material does make a difference.

Different metals resonate slightly differently. Some people can hear the difference... some don't notice it... I do, and I am not alone.

(Ecohawk - when the day comes when you have had a brass Copeland for a while, you will retract your words. )

However, aluminum -vs.- copper? Several things come to mind - which alloy of aluminum and which alloy of copper? It is easily possible to find both metals bearing very similar tonal properties to each other. Are we comparing two whistles with tubes of similar or different wall thicknesses? Are they voiced the same? Just looking at copper alone, the thinner-walled "k" type tubing will sound brighter and louder than type "L", but this is owing to wall thickness...

I can take the same whistle head and place it on three different tubes made from different metals, and produce three different whistles. It's that simple. I could take the same three tubes, fit each of them with different heads, and make them all sound the same. I can do these things, and I have.

As I alluded above, there are many variables, but if you take two tubes of dissimilar metals, and all of the same dimensions, they can and will sound different, depending on the type of metal. When I first started making whistles, I worked with stainless steel. I have also worked in brass, copper, sterling, and my best whistles are made from titanium - which is brighter, but still retains the graininess of brass.

There has been a long-going debate about raw brass sounding "mellower" to some than the nickel-coated brass tubes that are also commercially available. This is mostly owing to wall thickness and inner diameter differences. But it also isn't really a debate between two different metals, is it?

[ecohawk]

AvienMael,

Disagreement is healthy. When I contacted Michael Copeland about caring for the pre-owned nickel silver whistle (which you know very well) I had just acquired, I asked about the possibility of him making a Bb out of brass for me. He told me that it was a very different material which he preferred to work with because it was more forgiving. He also told me there was a difference in metal thickness which gave this whistle it's distinctive sound.

Maybe I misunderstood, and I don't have the email at hand but that seems to add another factor that has nothing specifically to do with the material itself as much as it's dimension, which was one of my original points. I wouldn't argue the point because I can tell a slight difference between my nickel and brass whistles on some tunes but not enough that I can indisputably identify which whistle is which all the time. Maybe my hearing isn't subtle enough to distinguish but I'd stand by my statement which I prefaced several time with "IMO" because it is my opinion. I would defy anyone to tell the difference between my aluminum and brass Burke Narrow Bore D's.

I've no doubt that some can hear a difference. I've read the same posts as you on C&F which testify to this point. I'm just stating my experience and the opinion of certain makers agrees with me. Ask Paul Busman what he thinks. He told me there's no difference between his wood and delrin whistles and that the wood type doesn't make a notable difference either.

Indeed I'll take design over material any day.

Good debate!

[AvienMael]

You are not the first person Michael Copeland has made such remarks to. The brass, which in this case is about 75% copper, is more forgiving because it is softer, whereas the nickel is inherently harder and has a higher density (and has a melting point roughly the same as stainless steel, or about 900 degrees higher than that of admiral's brass - just to give you some perspective), and the process by which he tapers the tubes requires a high degree of maleability in the tubing, a lot of skill, and sometimes, a fair amount of luck. It's a tough claim to support really, because the wall thickness that he starts with is no longer present in the finished whistle - it is thicker at the bell end, and thinner at the beak - and no two whistles turn out exactly the same. Nor is the difference in wall thickness consistent in any one whistle, from one end to the other.

What needs to be understood here, and isn't, is that every different material resonates acoustically at it's own individual, natural frequency. This is determined, in part, by a given material's density, and it is as unique from one material (or metal) to another as a human fingerprint. (and contrary to what a lot people seem to think, surface pitting - or even minor corrosion - of the material has little effect on acoustic resonance... therefor, the common (mis)conception that everything inside the whistle must be perfectly smooth is not correct. A good whistle will be brought to resonance easily, and some other whistles won't be at all, and the smoothness of the bore has little to nothing to do with it.) ...anyway...it is this fact that enables us to make metal detectors that detect non-ferrous metals and tell us exactly what type of metal a given specimen is, or locate stress cracks in steel gas lines before they rupture, for example... See, each different type of material can have several - even thousands of acoustic modes within a given frequency, because a sound wave needs a physical medium (like a whistle tube) through which to propagate itself, and these media will have their own natural resonant frequencies independent of, yet having influence on, that sound wave... and that is exactly what we are talking about here. A sound wave is a spherical pressure wave - and not really a flowing waveform, as many people tend to think of it. In a whistle, you have a fipple creating an acoustic wave, and you have a resonant frequency generated in the tube also creating an acoustic wave - at the same time and in the same tube. This is why wood sounds different from metal, for example - and nobody disputes that. So it amuses me that anyone would dispute the idea that two metals sound different, albeit slightly different in many cases.

Really, as metals go, it doesn't matter much if they sound different, or to what degree. This is a matter for a whistle maker to concern him/herself with, more than any consumer should... the only exceptions being any questions of durablility or cost. A whistle will only sound as good as it is made, and as well as it is played.

[hoopy mike]

I'm very interested in the difference a material makes to the sound of an instrument. To hear that it does make a difference, take a copper tube, hold it lightly in a vertical position about a quarter of the way from one end and tap it (pretend it's a wind chime). Do the same with an aluminium tube. The aluminium tube will produce a much purer sound, whereas the sound from the copper tube is "richer". One reason for this is that the copper tube tends to vibrate in more complex ways including an "ovaling mode" because the metal is less stiff.

Of course, blowing down a tube is different again, and vibrations of the tube will be damped out by the player holding the whistle, unless you are playing in a zero gravity environment or using the Australian method, which allows a lighter grip.

I suspect that the biggest influence that a material has is on the manufacturing method used to produce the whistle and that the manufacturing method has the biggest effect in terms of what shapes can be made, particularly when it comes to the whistle head. But I'd love to try more tubes made from different materials with the same whistle head. I guess the easiest way to do this is with a Gen Bb head on brass, nickel and copper tubes.

[Mr.Gumby]

Given the choice between a nickel (plated) tube and a brass one I'd generally pick the nickel as I feel it's (marginally) brighter. it wouldn't be something to fuss about too much and the difference in brightness is similar to that of a new, clean tube and one that has been played for, say, a year and built up a coat of muck.

[brewerpaul]

I'm firmly in the camp that says it doesn't make a difference. What's resonating in a whistle is the air column inside, not the walls of the whistle. When you play, you feel this in your fingertips and it's tempting to think that the walls of the whistle are vibrating,but wall vibration is minimal to non-existent.
In an instrument like a guitar where you have many square inches of thin wood set in motion by the string vibration, it's a different story. Those square inches of wood do vibrate and contribute to the sound. But in a tiny whistle tube, nah...

[hoopy mike]

Given the choice between a nickel (plated) tube and a brass one I'd generally pick the nickel as I feel it's (marginally) brighter. it wouldn't be something to fuss about too much and the difference in brightness is similar to that of a new, clean tube and one that has been played for, say, a year and built up a coat of muck.

Maybe surface roughness is why a platsic Susato sounds so very different from a metal tube whistle....

[ducks]

One of the reasons I haven't (yet) made any of the copper pipe hanging around into an attempt (and let's face it very probably a very poor attempt) at a whistle is because I can't face the thought of putting copper in my mouth. Copper tarnishes. patinas, smells eurghy and probably tastes eurghy. I know there are copper whistles out there, but I couldn't face a copper mouthpiece. This is, I hasten to add, a personal and very probably unreasonable point of view.

[lefty]

Not unreasonable at all Sophie, IMO copper is fine for plumbing and heating systems, but it does tarnish and go green with the copper oxidizes, although it is used widely in modern art and jewelery, its even used exstensively on roofs on very modern houses where the copper is treated to accelerate the oxidization so it goes green quicker, but your right I don't fancy sticking it in my mouth either, I have just posted a question on the flute forum regarding Gilles Lehart flutes, he uses wide bands of copper on the flute sections, just wondered if moisture got under the bands could this cause some sort of green growth that could cause problems in the wood, anyway thats getting way off topic.

lefty

[ducks]

the green stuff on copper is usually carbonates with sulphides and chlorides - it happens pretty slowly under natural conditions and shouldn't affect the wood, any more than brass or bronze fittings would cause a problem. It's certainly not a growth in a fungal sense

But - do you remember the smell of your hands when you were small and had clutched a handful of copper coins in a hot fist for a while? or am I just showing my age?

[Ronbo]

the green stuff on copper is usually carbonates with sulphides and chlorides - it happens pretty slowly under natural conditions and shouldn't affect the wood, any more than brass or bronze fittings would cause a problem. It's certainly not a growth in a fungal sense

But - do you remember the smell of your hands when you were small and had clutched a handful of copper coins in a hot fist for a while? or am I just showing my age?

Ya, the old smelly hand trick. I think the normal oxidizing path of copper puts a layer of copper oxides on the surface. It keeps it from corroding. The other stuff, I am not sure of. I repaired a large copper chandelier back in the day, and not wanting to spend the rest of eternity cleaning it (patina did not look attractive on this one), I used a nice clear epoxy paint on it. It has been about twenty years and no visible signs of tarnish. You are right about copper and fungi. Copper, along with silver and several other elements actually has been used in paints and coatings for years, in places like power plants, to keep the pipes clear of asiatic clams, which can literally plug up a large pipe in a relatively short time.