Why no interchangable bodies for Burke whistles?

[murchmb]

Is there a reason, other than availability, that there isn't an option to purchase bodies only for Burke whistles to use with an existing head? For example, it would be nice to have an option to purchase C and Eb bodies to use with the head joint that is on my D whistle. Or perhaps a shared head for A and Eb.

[Feadoggie]

Is there a reason, other than availability, that there isn't an option to purchase bodies only for Burke whistles to use with an existing head?

Mike is the best person to answer that question. But...I can think of a couple good reasons.

First Burke whistles are designed so that the bore of each tube is optimal to the performance of the whistle in a particular key. Now it's true that there are narrow bore and session bore models but each is a unique design and likewise optimised for performance. The ratio of the bore diameter to the length of the tube is one of the key measurements that allow the whistle to generate the high and low notes equally well. Of course lots of other measurements contribute as well. but once a maker hits on a design that works, they prefer to stick with that design as they make more whistles. Mr. Burke appears to scale his whistle design dimensions to keep things at top performance. One characteristic of Burkes that I depend on is their consistent playing characteristics across the entire range of keys. They all play the same as far as input goes. I play Burkes from high E down to low C and I do not have to think about what key whistle I am holding in my hands. They all respond equally well. I could not say that about the brand I played prior to Burkes, they used maybe three bore diameters to cover all those keys. I appreciate what Mr. Burke has done in this regard (and I have paid dearly in his support). They are good whistles, IMO.

Mike also changes his specs regularly so I am not sure that seperate bodies would be a viable option. I have high D's from 2001, 2003, 2004 and 2007. The designs are different enough that I do not think an interchangeable body would be workable business proposition.

And then, it increases whistles sales Hey, I've got a couple dozen Burkes. So it is working!

Feadoggie.

P.S. individuals participating on this forum have made their own replacement tubes in different keys as you suggest. Read this post for example. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=67853&

[murchmb]

Thanks for the thoughts, Feadoggie. They were in line with my own. I fired off a message to Mr. Burke and will report back with his response.

[narrowdog]

[quote="Feadoggie".

Mike also changes his specs regularly so I am not sure that seperate bodies would be a viable option. I have high D's from 2001, 2003, 2004 and 2007. The designs are different enough that I do not think an interchangeable body would be workable business proposition.]

Just a question slightly off topic so I'll appologise for this in advance

I have a narrow bore brass Burke from May 2004 which i've now played exclusively
for about 2 months now (this monogamy thing is growing on me I thought I
was going back to my Sindt but its not happened yet ).
I'm just curious to know if there is any real difference in sound (for want of a better way of putting it)
between a 2004 model and one of Michael's newer ones?

Nick

[Feadoggie]

Thanks for the thoughts, Feadoggie. They were in line with my own. I fired off a message to Mr. Burke and will report back with his response.

Your welcome! Let us know what Mr. Burke says.

'm just curious to know if there is any real difference in sound (for want of a better way of putting it)
between a 2004 model and one of Michael's newer ones?

That's a good question. I asked that one myself when there was an apparent design change in 2008ish. My current narrow bore whistles are from 2003 to 2005. I've played new ones to determine if I should replace mine. My take is that the sound has not changed. The windway is longer. The tuning slide has been re-arranged (hence the comments above on extra bodies). Bottom D may be a bit stronger on the session bore model. That's just my take.

Feadoggie

[m31]

Frequent interchanging would probably not be good for the o-rings.

[murchmb]

Frequent interchanging would probably not be good for the o-rings.

Good thought, but aren't those easily replaced? I wouldn't think that would be much of an issue. It should be easy to keep a bag off them handy. I'm very new to all of this, but don't Susato whistles have an o-ring to secure the tuning slide? They are available with interchangeable head joint/body combinations. For that matter, what other makes have o-rings and interchangeable bodies?

If a brass Burke could have bodies interchanged, the main concern might be dinging the top end of the body and boogering the whole thing up. Perhaps a composite Burke would be more robust for switching bodies. You might chip the edge, but you wouldn't dent it and affect the integrity of the joint seal.

Still awaiting a response from Mr. Burke. I understand it can take a few days depending on his schedule.

[MTGuru]

I was holding out for Mike B's response. But here's my take. Basically, in addition to Feadoggie's comments above, I think the elegant Burke collar and slide design is not conducive to taking the whistle apart with any frequency, compared to a simple head-on-tube or slide-in-tube.

o On the older design, the collar is glued to the tube, and it could become detached with frequent swapping. Repairable, but not something you want to happen. On the newer design, I think the collar sort of snaps in. But I can't imagine that snapping it on and off, if that should happen, is good for the whistle in the long run.

o The Burke slide is a very tight and careful fit into the collar/tube, at least on my Burkes, and a bit tricky to remove and re-insert. Makes for a very smooth slide action, but could be prone to damage if done often. I almost never disassemble my Burkes - maybe once a year for cleaning and lubrication.

o The Burke vs. Susato O-rings work differently. The Susato sits in a groove on the male half of the joint and the outer circumference forms the seal. The Burke sits in a groove inside the female half (the collar) and the inner circumference is the seal. Again, it works very well, but might be more prone to being dislodged and maybe damaged by inserting the head. "Easy" replacement may be a relative term. I've not had to do it, but I think it's tricky to compress the ring, position it, and seat it properly in the groove. To the point that Mike offers O-ring replacement as a factory service, in lieu of supplying extra rings with the whistle.

Of course, now Michael will pop in to say I'm completely wrong.

[m31]

Let's give Michael Burke a little incentive to post a reply. How much would you be willing to pay for extra tubes/bodies? Current pricing is

E, Eb, D, C#, C, B, Bb all $200, any material
A $220-250
Ab $230-250

[Tommy]

I was holding out for Mike B's response. But here's my take.

The Burke vs. Susato O-rings work differently. The Susato sits in a groove on the male half of the joint and the outer circumference forms the seal. The Burke sits in a groove inside the female half (the collar) and the inner circumference is the seal.

Of course, now Michael will pop in to say I'm completely wrong.

It is true that the O rings in a Susato, and Burke sit in the whistle in a different place. One whistle slides on the outer circumference, and the other slides on the inner circumference. However both the inner, and outer circumference of the O ring on each whistle make the seal. You are not completely wrong, just a minor glitch in description.

FWIW This would be the first time I have seen a glitch one of your posts. I have always admired how fast, accurate, and informative your posts are 24/7. It does give me pause to wonder if your doing anything else?

[hans]

Feadoggie gave a number of good reasons above for not having whistle bodies for different keys on offer.

But I disagree with MtGuru: I have a Burke brass session D, made October 2008. This has the newer barrel, in which the body sits within an acetale tube, plus an O ring. The fit is snug, but not tight. It is easy to pull the body out, and stick it in again. The slide is not affected by this, the slide mechanism is entirely different, and uses two O rings.

Having such a lovely engineered barrel, I thought immediately how it would be to fit bodies for other keys, and how the whistle would be for other keys, with the same tube diameter. So I made a number of bodies, from E to A in fact. It was an interesting study in the effects of changing length to bore ratio. The whistle with A body was far too narrow, and weak in the bottom end. The Bb body was also a bit weak in the bottom end,but one could just live with it. From B body up it was okay. Really nice was C#. Eb was fine too. E was at the upper extreme, playable, but more challenging in the top notes. The E body was also the last for which all tone holes fitted below the barrel.

Anyway, changing these brass bodies was not a problem. I used some cork grease for lubrication, and I never had trouble with the O ring. Of course when I made the bodies, I made sure to get the tube thin enough for the barrel. I had to sand the top end down a bit. And I chamfered the top edge, so when inserting the tube it will not hook on the O ring, but compress it while it gets pushed into place.

But I agree entirely with Feadoggie's point, that there is an optimal length to bore ratio, and therefore it would be better to use the right tube for the right length, if it is available, or can be made. And for brass tubing at least there are a vast number of sizes, so perhaps one size can fit for one or two keys optimally. Going a semi tone up or down does not make that much difference for the character of the whistle. But more than a semi tone will make a difference. Still interesting, and can be even desirable.

[MTGuru]

FWIW This would be the first time I have seen a glitch one of your posts.

You haven't been paying attention. And no, I have no life ...

But I disagree with MtGuru

No, no real disagreement. My description was of the older design, which I only have, and swapping the entire tube + collar to the head.

[Michael Burke]

Hi everyone,
I have been very busy and did not see an email on this issue, so I apologize for not answering it,but somehow it did not make it to my inbox.

I make my whistles as complete designs and each one has a unique upper bore and also many have perturbation inserts that compensate for tuning errors but would not work for other keys. While in some cases, it can be workable to use a second bore when there is a half step between keys- for example B-C, F-E, I have found that there are issues on some models, even in these situations that make me fell uncomfortable doing this and I have decided not to offer them there either.

Hans and others rightly pointed out that the length to diameter ratio is very important. If you make them too narrow, they don't have any power and if too wide they do not have a sweet upper octave and may be harsh. The narrow bores tend to have sweeter sounds and a bit more complexity is normal too, while wide bores tend to sound more fundamental. If you have an opportunity to play with a pipe organ, notice the different tonal colors of the fatter and thinner pipes, which have the same pitch, but a much different quality of tone.

The issues that make me not wish to do it might not bother some people, but an octave length on a tone or a note that does not jump right or has a tonal quality that is not balanced with the rest of the whistle is not something I like to send out. If I offered it, people would have a right to expect that I recommended it and though some would be satisfied, others would not, including myself.

What I do try to do is keep my instruments moderately priced for the workmanship that is in them and one can buy a whistle for each key needed over a period of time.
The O'ring sockets are very robust and should last a lifetime and O'rings can be replaced, however, I have been using O'rings in whistles for 9 years now and have yet to see one that was worn out or even worn enough to measure. I use Viton O'rings, which are impervious to oils, greases and are very tough. Keep them lubricated and who knows how long they will last?

Feadoggie gets the award for best answer on this one. MTGURU is usually spot on, but the O'Ring slots are not at risk from removal, though his answer is well thought out as usual. He does understand how my O'rings slots are designed, however. I put them in that way so that there are no large volume gaps in the slide because that can affect octave lengths on some notes. It is more difficult to make a slide this way, but that never troubles me, even though it is far more expensive to make them the way we do. The O'ring joint type is a radial seal O'ring joint. It has the benefit of having a constant pressure and a perfect seal so there is never a compromise of the acoustic integrity of the bore that can cause tonal troubles and other issues.

Some of you have a very good understanding of how instruments work and I appreciate your pinch hitting for me when my head is down and I don't get the inquiries answered in a timely manner. Thanks very much.
All the best
Mike

[murchmb]

Thanks for the great explanation, Mike. Had you simply replied to my email, I would have been hard pressed to pass along the information in my own words.

[Feadoggie]

Thanks, Mike.

Bore expansions and contractions, pressure nodes - how could I forget that? I am so perturbed.

Feadoggie