What mode/key please

[DrPhill]

Hi, I heard this tune and loved it. I found some ABC, but it needed some modification . During these modifications I may have lost the correct key signature.

<Edit> Sorry I am being unclear here. what I would like to know is what is the correct key/mode to the abc I now have is it really D, or have I wound up in a mode based on the same notes as D. I wouldnt mind knowing the key of the original, but that is not what I am really after </edit>

(I can also play this transposed down 5 semitones.) What I have is:

X:1
T:Bonny Portmore
M:3/4
L:1/16
K:D
d2B2 | A4A4 B2d2 | e4e4 (3d2e2f2 | g4f4e2d2 | B8
w:O_ bo-nny Port_more_ I_ am sor-ry to_ see
d2B2 | A4A4 B2d2 | e4f4e2d2 | B4A4A4 | A8
w:Such a woe-ful de_struct-ion of your orn-am-ent tree.
(3d2e2f2 | g4g4f2e2 | f4f4e2d2 | g4f4e2d2 | B8
w:For_ it stood on your_ shore for man_y's the long_ day
(3d2e2f2 | g4g4f2e2 | d2f2a4f2e2 | d3BG2A2B3G | A8
w:Till_ the long boats from_ Ant_trim came to float_ it_ aw_ay.

Is D the correct key?
Thanks in advance for any help

[hans]

The abc you gave is in A mixolydian, A is clearly the base note, and the scale notes are the same as D major, therfore A mixolydian.

In the Youtube clip Loreena McKennit sings it in D mixolydian, scale notes are same as in G major.

Mixolydian is like a major scale, but with a flattened seventh. So like D major, but with C natural instead of C#.

[DrPhill]

Thanks Hans,

Exactly the information I wanted. One day I hope I will be able to deduce that "A is clearly the base note", but this magic is currently beyond my ability.

Off to practice.

[FJohnSharp]

The abc you gave is in A mixolydian, A is clearly the base note, and the scale notes are the same as D major, therfore A mixolydian.

In the Youtube clip Loreena McKennit sings it in D mixolydian, scale notes are same as in G major.

Mixolydian is like a major scale, but with a flattened seventh. So like D major, but with C natural instead of C#.

Okay but in this case it's still a C# right? I don't fully understand modes and I'm asking. This seems contrary to what you described.

[MTGuru]

Hans means that D Mix has one sharp, F#. Compared to D Major, the C# (seventh scale degree) is lowered to C-nat. D Mix is relative to G Major (one sharp, F#).

Whether you think of Bonny Portmore above as D Major or related A Mixolydian, it's 2 sharps (F#, C#) in either case.

[Aanvil]

I think it's in the key of Chainsaw.

[hans]

The abc you gave is in A mixolydian, A is clearly the base note, and the scale notes are the same as D major, therfore A mixolydian.

In the Youtube clip Loreena McKennit sings it in D mixolydian, scale notes are same as in G major.

Mixolydian is like a major scale, but with a flattened seventh. So like D major, but with C natural instead of C#.

Okay but in this case it's still a C# right? I don't fully understand modes and I'm asking. This seems contrary to what you described.

In my last sentence I was referring to D mixolydian, the mode and key Loreena McKennit used in the video, not the abc notation above, which is in A mixolydian.

I usually try to grasp a mode like Mixolydian either by how it differs from the standard major diatonic scale, like Mixolydian has a flattened seventh note compared to the major scale, or how it could be derived from a major scale, using all the notes of the scale, but using a different starting note than the first note of the major scale. For Mixolydian this is starting on the Fifth of a major scale: D is the Fifth in the G major scale, so D mixolydian shares the same notes as G major, it has the same signature, one sharp (F#), but starts on D, not G.

On a D whistle you can play in D mixolydian by taking D as the root/base (tonic) note, and playing a C nat instead of C#, playing in the scale of G. Or you can play in A mixolydian by taking A as the root note and playing C#, not Cnat, playing in the scale of D. Amix is more common, as the Scottish pipe music is noted in it.

[RainInEden_K]

Hi Hans,

Sounds like you really know this area of music. May I ask a couple questions?

In our band we have a difficult mix of musical backgrounds that make modes and keys hard for us. My background is all playing by ear, the second main melody player studied ancient Japanese notation and has not foundation in western music theory, and our Tabla player is trained in traditional Indian structures and is maybe the closest in understanding western standards.

What is a good way for us to learn more about the basic concepts of key, modes and foundation theory, keeping in mind that we have pretty limited access to classes and not a lot of time to study between work and playing professionally?

Any direction would be welcome.

[hans]

I know only a little about music theory. But why would you want to study it? In what musical context? If you play by ear you won't need theory.

I think it makes only sense to study modes, scales etc in context to particular traditional music. Western music theory is not really providing good answers when it comes to traditional music, it comes with its own dogmas. The only people who seem to go beyond this and can think out of the box with regards to Western music theory are IMO jazz musicians. And there are some good jazz resources online.

But I'm not sure what exactly you are seeking.

Perhaps this can be useful as a starter to modes and scales in Irish and Scottish traditional music:
http://www.intermix.freeuk.com/modes_and_scales.htm

[MTGuru]

FWIW ... I've looked at two of the more available offerings, "Music Theory for Dummies" and "Complete Idiot's Guide to Music Theory", and was not impressed with the coverage, clarity, or emphasis.

From what I've seen, a much better choice is "Edly's Music Theory for Practical People", available from Amazon or directly from the author. With the big caveat that I have not read the book, only excerpts. But for an adult trad musician who wants to fill in the gaps - both for general knowledge and for shoring up one's own musicianship - it strikes me as accessible and clear and rather fun, with coverage of issues of interest and relevance to trad players.

[cboody]

Google is your friend (and so are the other search engines. search on something like "mode music" and you'll get lots of hits. Wikipedia has a discussion. Jack Campin has a wonderful document devoted to modes in Scottish music that has application outside Scotland, There have been extensive discussions on thesession.org of modes in irish music and there are many helps mentioned in the discussions. Here is a brief description of the common modes.

Commonly used in traditional music are Ionian (same as our major scale), Aeolian (same as out minor scale), Dorian, and Mixolydian. You can usually spot modes by the ending note of tunes (but not always).
Here's a little chart of how they work with key signatures:

Key Sig of 1 #

Ending Note Common Chords
Ionian G Gmaj, Cmaj, Dmaj or D7
Aeolian E Emin, Amin/Amaj, Bmaj/Bmin (other chords common in trad settings)
Dorian A Amin, Gmaj
Mixolydian D D maj, Cmaj

Key Sig of 2 #
Ending Note Common Chords
Ionian D Dmaj, Gmaj, Amaj or A7
Aeolian B Bmin, Emin/Emaj, F#min/F#Maj (others common in trad settings)
Dorian E Emin, Dmaj
Mixolydian A Amaj, Gmaj

If it is modal the scale will be named by the ending not shown above plus the scale type. Like A Dorian or A Mixolydian. If it is either major or minor the name is usually just "G" for the 1 sharp key (though more properly G major) or E minor for the 1 sharp minor.

Understand please that this is a bare bones description. There are tunes that for one reason or another could be in one of several modes and there are tunes that actually change modes along the way. And, there are all sorts of technical details that can obscure things. But, the little bit above will get you a long way...

[cboody]

The posting program took out the extra spaces that made my charts clear. I hope they are still useful....

[BoneQuint]

The posting program took out the extra spaces that made my charts clear. I hope they are still useful....

The "code" tag and "preview" button are your friends...

Code: Select all

Key Sig of 1 #
            Ending Note   Common Chords
Ionian      G             Gmaj, Cmaj, Dmaj or D7
Aeolian     E             Emin, Amin/Amaj, Bmaj/Bmin (other chords common in trad settings)
Dorian      A             Amin, Gmaj
Mixolydian  D             D maj, Cmaj

Key Sig of 2 #
            Ending Note   Common Chords
Ionian      D             Dmaj, Gmaj, Amaj or A7
Aeolian     B             Bmin, Emin/Emaj, F#min/F#Maj (other chords common in trad settings)
Dorian      E             Emin, Dmaj
Mixolydian  A             Amaj, Gmaj

[FJohnSharp]

i found this the other day.

http://www.intermix.freeuk.com/modes_and_scales.htm