Well known players who can't read music

[Belgian_Waffle]

The more you learn, the more you know. The more you know, the more you can...
So if you have the possibility, why not ?

[Martin Milner]

Brian Finnigan from Flook doesn't read the dots, but uses ABC to some extent when noting down new tunes. He doesn't give the correct length to notes though (or didn't in his workshops I attended), so you have to have heard the tune to play it right.

Turlough O'Carolan was a bit of a harpist by all accounts, couldn't read a note on account of being blind.

Folks that play music well with no understanding of it do so in spite of not because of it.

Difficult to prove wrong, but I think you are blinkered.
Reading music off a page is not quite the same as understanding what makes music, nor indeed is a deep knowledge of musical theory.

[s1m0n]

Unless you can show me that human nature has changed over the past 2,500 years, Homer is as valid an example as anyone else.

Oh, Homer... I really don't think you want to go that route.

Your thinking is flawed. I have no idea how eloquent he is, but Gov. David Patterson of New York can't read. He's no hell as governor, but he's certainly capable of composing and delivering a competent speech.

[chris_coreline]

Socraties.

anyway.... :p

reeding music is seperate from understanding music, i recon you could teach music theory without teaching notation; infact notation is quite a limiting factor when dealing with advanced harmonic progression and all that jazz stuff - when we were being taught it the whitebord would have a cleff and a key signature and the rest would be boxes, letter names and obscure symbols - seperate to notation, which showed the harmonic progression of the piece.

As ITM is mainly an aural tradtion, the 'dots' are overcomplex for what we need from a notation system, ABC has been a lot better - simply describing one melody line witch a decent player with a knowlege of the tradition can slot orniments and other nuances in to bring the tune up to scratch. Thus the knowlege of the dots is rather irrilevent in most cases. But i think there worthwhile to know if you want to have a more rounded understanding of your instrument and music in general. Espically handy if you want to cross train.

Finally, reeding music has cultural value; take a score into a coffeeshop or posh pub at lunch time and reed it, smilling to yourself ocasionally while sipping coffee - people will either think your cultured or wont bother you because they thing your insane - either way you win!

[mutepointe]

Unless you can show me that human nature has changed over the past 2,500 years, Homer is as valid an example as anyone else.

The job market and lifestyles have changed. Not many oppurtunities for hunters and gatherers these days. Not much work for software developers back in Homer's day.

[chrisp]

Isn't music notation a means of recording? Putting it down on paper so it can't be forgotten? It enables someone who has not heard the music, to be able to play it.
Today we have many ways of recording, and with our ever advancing technology we can record in different ways.

I work as a stone mason, and have learned my craft from older more experienced masons. Their skills have been traditionally handed down verbally, visually, or by just doing/showing. When new techniques/products inevitably take over, the old traditional skills tend to be forgotten because they are not being used. Nothing has been written down or recorded, so in time these skills and learning how to do them are eventually forgotten. We all stand in awe of our predecessors wondering how on earth did they do that?

Classical music survives because it has been recorded, written down, and can be played exactly how it was meant to be played some hundreds of years later. A friend of mine plays in an orchestra, and says that he can't play without the dots in front of him.

In ITM, the music has been handed down perhaps more by playing/learning with others, or by memory. There are many ways of playing one tune, and tunes differ regionally. If you start a rumor, it quite often comes back as a different story. Perhaps that is why ITM is so alive, it can be interpreted and expressed in so many different ways.

Being able to read music or understand its theories, is agreeably a helpful tool, but is it true to say that ITM has evolved without it, and that is why it is what it is, bubbling with personalized improvisation?

Has anyone listened to midi files?

[Liam]

Unless you can show me that human nature has changed over the past 2,500 years, Homer is as valid an example as anyone else.

The job market and lifestyles have changed. Not many oppurtunities for hunters and gatherers these days. Not much work for software developers back in Homer's day.

Yeah, the job market has changed.. but the point was that many of the fundamentals of music haven't changed all that much, certainly not in the last 50 years. I suspect there are more than a few popular music acts today that have little or know background in music theory (actually listening to some of them might actually prove the benefits of learning music ).

Being able to read/write music and having a knowledge of music theory is a two edged sword. Yes it can greatly facilitate understanding and passing on existing types of music and working within the boundries of the music theory you have learned, but I suspect it might not (unless your education included it) equip you to deal with music that doesn't fit into that paradigm.

--
Bill

[m31]

Being able to read/write music and having a knowledge of music theory is a two edged sword. Yes it can greatly facilitate understanding and passing on existing types of music and working within the boundries of the music theory you have learned, but I suspect it might not (unless your education included it) equip you to deal with music that doesn't fit into that paradigm.

Imagination vs knowledge? The nice thing about having the latter is the ability to recognize: when we lack the former; the limits of our knowledge; the need to go and learn some more. Having knowledge of theory or notation are never self-limiting, only their uncreative application is. Possessing creativity without knowledge is also problematic.

ITM does quite fit well within the Western paradigm. Notated music is an approximation of what's actually heard and played, regardless of the genre. Every experienced musician knows that.
.

[s1m0n]

Unless you can show me that human nature has changed over the past 2,500 years, Homer is as valid an example as anyone else.

The job market and lifestyles have changed. Not many oppurtunities for hunters and gatherers these days. Not much work for software developers back in Homer's day.

[s1m0n]

Unless you can show me that human nature has changed over the past 2,500 years, Homer is as valid an example as anyone else.

The job market and lifestyles have changed. Not many oppurtunities for hunters and gatherers these days. Not much work for software developers back in Homer's day.

Few software developers get hired for their eloquence.

~~

But Hockey coaches do, especially 'motivater'-style coaches, and it's also a requirement for broadcast journalists and senators. Former Montreal Canadiens coach Jacques Demers is all of these, and has been illiterate all his life. Despite that, he has succeeded at the highest levels: he was voted 'coach of the year' two years running, and has his name on the Stanley Cup, which he won coaching the 92-3 Habs. After retiring as a coach, he has been an analyst and commentator on Quebec television, and in 2007 became a member of the Canadian Senate.

[Jerry Freeman]

I think we're far underestimating the capacity of the human mind.

Before writing, paper and printing were widely available, most cultures had oral traditions based on the ability of people to remember astonishing amounts of material without ever having seen it written down (Homer's epics are an example). I daresay there's a parallel capacity with music for those who have immersed themselves over a lifetime without taking recourse to musical notation.

If one's own experience is based on a different approach, it's easy to assume that anyone who doesn't use the same tools wouldn't be able to perform the same tasks.

Best wishes,
Jerry

[chris_coreline]

I daresay there's a parallel capacity with music for those who have immersed themselves over a lifetime without taking recourse to musical notation.

here here!
even With musical notation, the ability possessed by a lot of people posting here to carry arround hours if not days worth of music *in their minds!* is frankley amazing. I ony have anbout 60 tunes and im still amazed that i can remember them all to some extent given that i have trouble remembering what i had for breakfast most days!.

[chrisp]

I daresay there's a parallel capacity with music for those who have immersed themselves over a lifetime without taking recourse to musical notation.

here here!
even With musical notation, the ability possessed by a lot of people posting here to carry arround hours if not days worth of music *in their minds!* is frankley amazing. I ony have anbout 60 tunes and im still amazed that i can remember them all to some extent given that i have trouble remembering what i had for breakfast most days!.

Mr MTguru springs to mind there

I sometimes think of a tune, but can't for the life of me remember it, until two or three notes brings it all back without even thinking of it?? Musical memory is amazing when you think how many finger movements and timing issues a tune can have!!
Maybe we should try to remember what we ate for breakfast in a musical way

[Liam]

Being able to read/write music and having a knowledge of music theory is a two edged sword. Yes it can greatly facilitate understanding and passing on existing types of music and working within the boundries of the music theory you have learned, but I suspect it might not (unless your education included it) equip you to deal with music that doesn't fit into that paradigm.

Imagination vs knowledge? The nice thing about having the latter is the ability to recognize: when we lack the former; the limits of our knowledge; the need to go and learn some more. Having knowledge of theory or notation are never self-limiting, only their uncreative application is. Possessing creativity without knowledge is also problematic.

In an ideal world, yes, but I think there are plenty of cases where knowledge limits the imagination... if for no other reason than you try to fit everything into that paradigm that you have learned.

ITM does quite fit well within the Western paradigm. Notated music is an approximation of what's actually heard and played, regardless of the genre. Every experienced musician knows that.
.

I think it might be disputed about how well it does or doesn't fit. Certainly Slow Airs and Sean Nos Singing tend to not fit very well in the bounds of notated music. A very well known player, who does in fact have an advanced musical education, once told me that he could always tell when people came to Irish Music after being classically trained in music -- they always tried to fit the tunes into their classical education. Likewise, most of my teachers for concertina and button accordion stressed learning by ear and suggested keeping away from the dots as much as possible.

--
Bill

[whistle1000]

Hello out there. I don't often post. I do read them though and this topic is one of my own issues. I started playing clarinet in jr. high school. My first week with the clarinet, I was able to play tunes by ear quite easily. I continued to surprise my
" teacher " for those years. In high school I played first clarinet in a stage band. My pal from jr. high would play the melody for me then I would have it. The following year, I wanted to try the sax. I played 4th sax but not for long. I couldn't get the timing etc. I was caught when I kept messing up my part while trying to play it. I would often get the band leader, who played clarinet, to play the parts for me the previous year. He wasn't buying it the year I started sax. He kept stopping the tune because I kept messing up. I asked him to play my part again but he wasn't having it. He asked me to go back somewhere in the tune ( barry Mannilows " Daybreak " ) and played it by myself. I just sat there quite embarrassed staring at the useless music on the stand. He flipped, berated me and kicked me out of the classroom. I will never forget the shame and embarassement. The next day, I was at my locker and the bandleader walked by, I reached into my locker, got my sax out to give it to him as it was donated to the school. I had my head down to pass it to him. He told me to keep it. He told me that I was one of his most gifted students but he couldn't have me in the band if I couldn't read music. I really wanted to play in that band. So there is a good reason for reading. I remember that some of the players who could read were not such great players anyway. Boy, did I ever learn to play the crap out of that sax. after my honeymoon, In Ireland, some years later, I really wanted to play the whistle. At age 31, I took my first tinwhistle lessons. two years later, I was playing professionally and touring with an international award winning band.