F# roll

[Trip-]

Yes, the usual roll... we've been there done that.
But,
lately I find that it's pretty unfriendly for me to do this roll when coming from A down to F#: first tapping then cutting. Do you first tap then cut on F#? Essepecially when coming down from above..?

first cut then tap is of course naturally friendlier, but can really sound bad when you want a progressive smooth rythmic pattern.

[MTGuru]

Can you give a specific example, Trip?

A~F3 = A F{A}F{E}F shouldn't be difficult.

[Trip-]

your example is the friendlier version I was talking about: cut then tap.

I'm talking about first tapping then cutting... F# (E) F# (G) F#

[mahanpots]

I first cut then tap on F#, never the other way around.

[Trip-]

Thing I noticed, that in some situations it is better musically/rythmicly to do it the other way. I don't know why, but it's harder for me... I might need to practice this issue. Just wanted to know how it goes for you people. For now it seems I'm not alone in this...

[MTGuru]

Yes, that's a reverse roll, Trip. It's harder for most (including me) because it's less played, so it's less automatic. It's just a matter of practice. Going back to your original question ...

Do you first tap then cut on F#? Especially when coming down from above..?

No, almost never. I'd almost always play a regular roll.

When playing A~F3 if you find it hard to cut with the T3 finger because you just moved it to go from A to F, try cutting with a different finger: T1 or T2.

Or lead into the roll with a single tap or quick slide from below: A {E}F{A}F{E}F. That alternating B2-T3-B2 tap-cut-tap finger sequence can fool your brain into doing the cut more cleanly. I often start my long rolls with a tap or slide, wherever they occur.

first cut then tap is of course naturally friendlier, but can really sound bad when you want a progressive smooth rythmic pattern.

Hmm, but it shouldn't sound bad. In fact, regular rolls and reverse rolls should sound the same - the note broken by 2 blips. If they sound different to you, then I'm afraid you're timing or execution may be wrong.

(Yes, I know then can be made to sound different by pushing the cut or tap, but I don't think that's the issue here.)

My main use for a reverse roll is when I cut into the roll, for example: {B}G{F}G{B}G. Then the reverse roll lets you preserve the alternating cut-tap-cut finger sequence.

I also seem to want to play reverse rolls particularly on G in certain tunes, but I can't think of an example at the moment. That's a fingering issue, and probably just a quirk of my own playing.

Hope that helps.

[Trip-]

A reverse roll right...

I'm not sure if my execution is bad, I'm usually satisfied with the rythmics...
I've noticed that this reverse roll is needed when you want to preserve a rythmic idea.

for example a reel,
in several parts of the reel you'd like to accent the 1 and 3 alot... just because you want to.
Imagine you're playing |dBAB AF3| - of course I'd first naturally do it using the regular roll. But if I really want to accent on the 3rd, for a smooth action I feel like I have to make it reverse on the F# roll... Which leaves me in the opinion that in some scenarios, I can't seem to escape the reversed one.

I just wanted to share an observation about the roll and maybe get other points of view or shared ones.

[Bloomfield]

I play something like a reverse roll in jigs, when there is two off-beat notes of the same pitch are followed by a long note of the same pitch. Something like: egg g3 | or ... A | Bee edB | ... in the Lilting Banshee. The idea is to cut notes on the beat and to tap off-beat notes, at least by preference. You end up with A | Be{d}e {g}e dB | ... which resembles a reverse roll in terms of finger movement, but not in terms of stress or phrasing.

[MTGuru]

Good example, Bloomfield. I do that, too.

[fearfaoin]

I play something like a reverse roll in jigs, when there is two off-beat notes of the same pitch are followed by a long note of the same pitch. Something like: egg g3 | or ... A | Bee edB | ... in the Lilting Banshee. The idea is to cut notes on the beat and to tap off-beat notes, at least by preference. You end up with A | Be{d}e {g}e dB | ... which resembles a reverse roll in terms of finger movement, but not in terms of stress or phrasing.

I know you've said this before and I'm
glad you brought it up again, because I
was looking for it. What is it about cuts
that make them better to use on the beat
(and taps better off the beat)? Is it the
sound of the cut that matters in that
position or something psychological about
the technique that keeps the rhythm right?

Thanks!

[Bloomfield]

I know you've said this before and I'm
glad you brought it up again, because I
was looking for it. What is it about cuts
that make them better to use on the beat
(and taps better off the beat)? Is it the
sound of the cut that matters in that
position or something psychological about
the technique that keeps the rhythm right?

Thanks!

To my mind, it's the crisper, stronger sound of of the cut that makes it appropriate for the strong notes, while the gentler quieter taps are good for off beats. But like anything in ITM, a rule like this will only take you far and you'll hear perfectly traditional sounding musicians doing it exactly the other way around, I suspect. Until you are really good, though, it's a helpful guideline.