OT: thoughts on MSN article on "Irish Travelers"?

avanutria · Post by **avanutria** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 12:55 pm

http://slate.msn.com/?id=2071456

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 12:58 pm

"A few Irish Travelers emigrated to America during the Potato Famine of the mid-19th century. Their 7,000-10,000 descendants still speak the secret Traveler language, a dialect alternately known as Shelta, Gammon, or Cant, which includes elements of Irish Gaelic, English, Greek, and Hebrew."

Yo! Wazzup, homie yrwyddgrug?

ChrisLaughlin · Post by **ChrisLaughlin** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 1:16 pm

My girlfriend is doing her workstudy program with the Traveller community in and around Dublin.
Chris

The Weekenders · Post by **The Weekenders** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 1:16 pm

Peter Kennedy's giant song book has songs of the travelers and some basic vocabulary.

I was surprised by article referring to those specific Traveling Folk on the East Coast as Irish as they are usually referred to as Scottish Travelers. But the article claimed they were Catholic so I dunno...And its the first I ever heard of PRE-CELTIC origins. I had always understood that Scots travelers had some Rom words in there (from East Euro gypsies)...

60 minutes or 20/20 did a feature about the bunch in the Carolinas/West Virginia, all driving identical white pickups with campers and doing the driveway sealer scam, but said they were Scottish.

"Come all ye tramps and hawkers lads" might be about Traveling Folk.

And while we're talking about it, didya notice everybody wants to nail that gal, while the one who drowned her kids in the bathtub was offered by sympathy by NOW and stuff. what is up with that?

CraigMc · Post by **CraigMc** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 1:24 pm

Mickey: Degs. D'ya like degs?
Tommy: Dykes?
Mickey: Wha?
Woman: Yeh, degs.
Mickey: Degs, ye like degs?
Tommy: Oh! Dogs! Sure. I like caravans better.

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 1:24 pm

I have found some media reports to be surprisingly bigoted. No doubt the Travelers, Gypsies, et al, have done their share of troublemaking, but there has been a societal repulsion for nomadic peoples for so long, that just being a member of such an ethnic group seems to make one evil in the public's eyes. In an age of "Political Correctness" we can still hold one's ethnicity and cultural background against anybody who happened by lot to be born a nomad. You're automatically considered a superstitious barbaric horsethief.

A little history of the treatment of the Gypsies, another wandering people, "In 1726, Charles VI passed a law that any male Gypsy found in the country was to be killed instantly, while Gypsy women and children had their ears cut off, and were whipped all the way to the border. Gypsy hunting was a common sport; in 1826, Freiherr von Lenchen displayed his trophies publicly: the severed heads of a Gypsy woman and her child. In 1835, a Rheinish aristocrat entered into his list of kills 'A Gypsy woman and her suckling babe.'" (quote from The Pariah Syndrome).

Let us be careful. Let us treat all men with dignity. Let us hold all innocent until proven otherwise.

Chuck_Clark · Post by **Chuck_Clark** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 1:25 pm

That little blurb was actually pretty mild. The Irish Travelers are considered by most or all American police departments as a major nuisance. Bogus or shoddy home improvement scams are the principal occupation of the males, whereas the women engage heavily in confidence scams and outright thievery. As a general rule, their crimes are mostly 'soft' crimes involving deception as opposed to the more violent crimes favored by other types of gangs.

What makes them especially tough to deal with is that they are, like true Gypsies, all related by blood and culture, so they're particularly difficult to infiltrate. Beyond that, they're mostly transients and seldom stay long in one area. In their 'home' areas, they tend to be law-abiding, confining their illegal activities to their intinerant lives. For that reason, law enforcement tends to treat them more as a nuisance than an overt threat.

CraigMc · Post by **CraigMc** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 1:55 pm

Here is a message board that is going off on this -
http://www.acmepet.com/club/bboard/naar ... /1071.html

And you think C&F get's off topic once in a while?!!! This is appears to be a pet discussion list....geesh

Here is another link for info on the Travellers

http://www.gypsyloresociety.org/extlinks.htm

The Weekenders · Post by **The Weekenders** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 2:03 pm

Walden's note reminded me that I have often thought of a parallel of the European Gypsies to North American native people. In neither case can the victorious prevailing culture accept or absorb their cultural practices, most of which seem to pre-date landed agriculture. So they are often reduced to theivery or self-destruction cause they just dont/can't/won't/maybe shouldn/t fit in to the new scheme.

Extermination is the usual practice (as evidenced above) unless some form of enlightened ethos is present. But even then, it never seems to really work because the solution is too impractical for our system of things and property...

When I lived in India, there was a group of Banjaras, or nomads, who had formerly migrated from South India up into one of the Central Asian republics (USSR at that time). The govt. tried to settle them in housing and modern political realities made their formerly casual border crossing into a political crisis..But they were basically gypsies, with theivery, prosititution etc as their professions.

Oh, sorry CraigMc... i did spin. But I did mention music, at first.....

[ This Message was edited by: The Weekenders on 2002-09-25 16:17 ]

ChrisLaughlin · Post by **ChrisLaughlin** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 2:37 pm

Gosh folks,
This is, as far as I can tell, a really racist, bigotted thread going on.
It is simply impossible - and just plain wrong - to brand an entire ethnic group or social group as this or that, especially as something bad, because of the actions of some within that group. Imagine if people went around saying "People from New Hampshire are murderers, thiefs and liers", just because there are people in NH who HAVE murdered, stolen and lied. That would be just plain stupid. It's just as ignorant to brand all the Travellers/nomadic peoples as liers, prostitutes, criminals and thief. This sort of lumping of a huge group into one category, be it a good category or a bad one, is just plain wrong.

My two cents, take it or leave it,
Chris

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 2:39 pm

Speaking of Gypsies. I was reading an article with a description of American Gypsies from perhaps the first half of the 19th Century. Anyway, it mentioned them playing an instrument similar to a banjo. Anyone know what this might have been?

The Weekenders · Post by **The Weekenders** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 3:01 pm

At the link that Craig Mc noted, is a sublink to entertainers and circus folk that is fascinating. I couldnt really spend time there, (i'm at "work") but you might find yer answer there.
Because I studied Gold Rush musicians a bit, I wonder if some of them might have been travelers after seeing info at that site.

[ This Message was edited by: The Weekenders on 2002-09-25 17:07 ]

avanutria · Post by **avanutria** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 3:13 pm

On 2002-09-25 16:37, ChrisLaughlin wrote:
Gosh folks,
This is, as far as I can tell, a really racist, bigotted thread going on.

I just want to apologize to anyone who feels this thread was not a good idea. I saw the MSN article, and wondered what other people thought about the article. I didn't mean to start anything unpleasant.

Please note that the MSN article is under the "Slate" section, meaning (to my knowledge) it is primarily an opinion article.

[ This Message was edited by: avanutria on 2002-09-25 17:13 ]

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 3:25 pm

On 2002-09-25 17:13, avanutria wrote:
I just want to apologize to anyone who feels this thread was not a good idea.

Actually I'd been thinking about having a thread on the Travellers, since the news story broke.

_________________
<a href="http://chiffboard.mati.ca/faq.php#rpp">Reasonable ~ Person</a>

[ This Message was edited by: Walden on 2002-09-25 17:27 ]

CraigMc · Post by **CraigMc** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 3:27 pm

It is simply impossible - and just plain wrong - to brand an entire ethnic group or social group as this or that, especially as something bad, because of the actions of some within that group.

Gee-wiz let's be honest. I don't think this is bigoted or racist thread. I think it's fair and perfectly fine to discuss certain groups as long as we all agree these are stereotypes based on our experiences. I think most people simply find the Irish Travelers intriguing.

Part of my line goes to a group of Scottish Travelers that immigrated to Ireland in the 1800's.

Any group has specific characteristics and a culture.

Chris,

Why else would your girlfriend choose to study them? I would never call her inflammatory names for following her interests.