Define Responsiveness

[PhilO]

We have had lengthy discussion, discourse and definition (not to mention alliteration) of various whistle characteriatics like chiff and backpressure; but I don't recall anything other than references to the descriptive term RESPONSIVENESS as a whistle trait. I know what I mean when I say a whistle is responsive, but, in the past on occasion have been surprised to hear professional players say such and such whistle is not "responsive" when playing a then favorite of mine for example.

Obviously, responsiveness is a good thing, and perhaps more than most other traits can best be judged by better players.

Can we get some input on this? a bit of clarity so that new players know exactly what's being referenced by the term "responsive."

Ok, why did I just think of this (other than I'm playing again since my hand is healing)? From time to time we (I?) get locked into different favorites; right now, I can't seem to put down my Sindt D, which I used to think was a bit uncomfortable because of relatively narrow tubing; I had been favoring wider bores. The first thing I've noticed about the Sindt is how much better it feels in my hands now, and I said to myself "that's a really responsive whistle."

Any thoughts?



Philo

[whistleman922]

I don't really know anything about the technical issue of responsiveness, but i'll give you my take on it.

To me, I'd call a whistle responsive if I picked it up and it played exactly the way I wanted it to. No squawks, no lost notes, no weird chirps on the ornaments. so, given the right amount of time (and the skill of the player I guess) any whistle would become more responsive for me because I learn how to make it respond. I played a sindt D for 5 years and always found it a little temperamental, not staying steady on tonguing especially. last year I made the switch to a Colin Goldie D. After getting to know that whistle I can go back to any of my old whistles (or about any whistle that I've found) and they all play wonderfully! I can get the tonguing on the sindt with no problem. I just needed to learn how to handle a whistle the way IT wanted to be played.

[peeplj]

I think it's a really good question.

Terms like "resistance" and "backpressure" have exact meanings and are terms borrowed from the lexicon of orchestral wind instruments.

You could actually rig up a piece of equipment that could measure how much air pressure a whistle required to start to sound to measure backpressure, or the minimum amount of air required to enter the whistle for a given note to sound to measure resistance.

A term like "responsive" is more subjective and less precise in its meaning.

My personal take on "responsive" simply means a whistle that can be played very cleanly all across its range even when played very rapidly.

To other musicians, "responsive" may have a slightly different meaning; it may refer, for instance, to the amount of "crackle" that some whistles have during ornamentation, or it might refer to how easy it is to make certain notes "pop out" for accents when playing.

I think the only way to know for sure exactly what a musician means when they say an instrument is "responsive" is to ask them.

--James

[henryz]

I'm very curious to hear what our most expert players & makers have to say about this. I've noticed as an amateur maker (and player) that the attack time (the time difference from when you intend a note to sound to when it actually does) can be varied considerably (i.e., by varying block-to-blade spacing or windway taper) with changes in fipple design. You can produce a whistle that is noticeably (to even rank beginning players) slow to respond to breath pressure.

I'd also like to know what the really expert players expect along these lines. Do you have a test tune or other technique that you judge responsiveness with?

Are there glaring and obvious examples of "very responsive" and/or "poorly response" whistles amongst those commercially available? I've never seen any negative comments along these lines in published reviews. Anyone want to offer their candid opinion(s)?

Has anyone ever attempted to measure responsiveness/attack time using tartini or similar software?

My own limited experience suggests that obtaining a very short note attack time may require some trade-offs (perhaps sacrificing some purity of tone). What do the expert whistle makers have to say (or are willing to reveal) about voicing for "responsiveness" and trade-offs involved?

[Thomas-Hastay]

A "Responsive" instrument is an instrument that will "sound" easily, without hesitation. Some Flutes and whistles suffer delay when you tongue a note and also have difficulty changing registers. This is directly concerned with the voicing/embouchure. Have a look at the animation of the "Von Karman Vortex Street" here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Karman_vortex_street

The relationship between the airstream and the leading edge of the labium ramp is the "Key" to a responsive instrument. If the edge is too sharp or the angle of the ramp is too shallow, turbulence is created in front of the labium edge and a "delay" occurs in the generation of soundwaves (Von Karman waveform), thus an unresponsive instrument.

The Labium Ramp is no different than any aerodynamic shape. How many aircraft have sharp leading edges on their wings? Just because "The Olde Masters" made sharp edges on their Instruments doesn't mean they were correct. Is a model T a better machine than a Ferrari? Improvements in instrument design are "past due" for changes IMO. A "formed leading ramp edge"(or Flute embouchure edge) for better responsiveness is just one of those improvements, yes?

Thomas Hastay
thomashastay@yahoo.com

[lyrick]

Wow, I'd always assumed a pretty specific meaning for responsiveness, similar to what the last two posts have said. "How quickly a note sounds, or 'responds', when you play it". It's especially noticeable when playing ornaments in the second octave. When playing a responsive whistle, the note or cut responds (sounds) quickly to your breath pressure and fingering, as opposed to responding sluggishly. On a non-responsive whistle, there's a tiny micro-second delay in when you first blow the note and when that note sounds, most noticeable in the second octave.

By this definition, a Sindt is indeed responsive, as are most cheapies, as are the designer whistles that are made to emulate cheapies. Some of the designer whistles I've played aren't as responsive as the Sindt and as the cheapies.

[Feadoggie]

I have no arguments with the case Thomas makes for the voicing effecting responsiveness in a whistle. I do think that there is a bit more to it though, particularly adequate venting of each note to be generated. Properly sized, well-formed holes seem to help. But that's just my personal observation.

Feadoggie

[Thomas-Hastay]

you're correct (as usual) Fedoggie the answer is not a simple one.

I try to keep my answers simple because I tend to lapse into Acoustic "Techno-babble". The Natives get angry when they can't understand me

[CranberryDog]

If I call my dog and he ignores my command to come ... the dog is not being responsive. There is the notion of timeliness in reaction to a given stimulus.

An instrument (when manipulated) is responsive when it produces a note in a timely manner.

I too have no issues with any of the previous observations.

[McHaffie]

This is very interesting and enlightening in fact. To me I always interpreted the 'responsiveness' of a whistle to be how easily my fingers could 'pop' around on the finger-board, and how easily it changed registers up and back down without buzz or squeaks...

I guess it really is kind of subjective, aside from the exacting article posted above

Take care,
John

[Tyghress]

John, I don't think you're answer is really different from all those above.

When I try to jump octaves and the whistle takes too much attention, it is unresponsive. When I try to jump octaves and it does it cleanly and without thought on my part, it is responsive. When I have to be careful on the low notes, lest they jump without my wanting it, I call that sensitive and I don't care for it much.

If a whistle can't keep up with my fingers and play the notes I want (and mind you, my fingers aren't terribly fast) it isn't responsive enough for me. Sometimes I find that windways with a lot of backpressure don't respond well for me because I can't keep up the wind requirements.

[PhilO]

I had in mind something apart from ease of transition between octaves which is a function of voicing and breath control, but rather can the whistle keep up suitably and CRISPLY with the attack of the player, and especially a very good player with experience and the modicum of speed that builds naturally with a very good player as suited to the tunes. That is, keep up with the mind, heart, fingers and breath in the combined attack, optimally?

Also, do narrow bores tend to be more responsive than wide bores?

A truly great player remarked upon playing one of my wider bore D whistles that this particular maker's whistles were not "responsive" while acknowledging that it did seem to suit me very well; inference being I wasn't yet at the stage where I could note or make use of any more responsiveness. This player also noted that while a narrow bore D whistle of mine was very responsive, it's wide bore C mate (same maker and materials) was lacking in that department. Another excellent player made much the same observation, thus the question regarding possible bore/responsiveness relationship. Or is this just a bit of finnicky nitpicking?

Or is this just a dumb or misguided question?

I just think, depending on your level of play, this may be a bit harder to pin down than some of the other characteristics; that is, if you're not accomplished enough to note a lack of responsiveness, it may mean that while the whistle certainly seems "responsive" enough to you, it may actually not be a relatively "responsive" whistle.

I do appreciate your responsiveness thus far.

Philo

[peeplj]

It occurs to me that part of how responsive a whistle is, is found in large part in the skill of the player.

Not every whistle rewards the same approach. If you try to play an Overton (for example) with the same breath technique as an inexpensive whistle requires, you will not be rewarded.

Learn how the whistle needs to be played and, believe me, you'll find the Overton to be a phenomenal whistle. To me, more than any other whistle, the Overton high D defines responsiveness in whistles; it's the gold standard against which all else is measured.

--James

[CranberryDog]

I suppose robotic "hands" could be created that would eliminate the player's level of expertise and simply demonstrate the rapidity of note transitions to the point where the whistle fails to make the transitions without a noticeable lag time.

[peeplj]

I suppose robotic "hands" could be created that would eliminate the player's level of expertise and simply demonstrate the rapidity of note transitions to the point where the whistle fails to make the transitions without a noticeable lag time.

It wouldn't work...to play whistle, you need not only the hands, you need the breath...but even more than that, you need the musician.

One musician "drives" his whistles and likes a whistle that can be pushed and played right at the edge, very aggressive playing.

Another wants a whistle that doesn't need a lot of breath support and has an easy high octave.

These two guys are going to have very different ideas of what makes a whistle play well. A whistle that the one finds responsive, the other would find a real hassle to adjust to.

--James