Chiff and Fipple Forums

Rather than going off topic on this thread http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=58914 I thought I would start up a new thread.

So.....who here is aware of their embouchure when playing the whistle?
Are you aware of what effect embouchure has on whistle playing?
Is it important?

1. Me
2. Yes
3. More important than I currently understand or can achieve right now.

I'm not too aware of my whistle embouchure, because mine is the same as it was during my 6 years of saxophone playing. It's just the natural position for me at this point.

FWIW, some previous comments of mine about whistle embouchure:

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?p=749745#749745
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?p=649044#649044
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?p=641890#641890

Thanks for those references to older threads MT, the search I did only gave me flute embouchure.
I am of the opinion that embouchure control on the whistle is just as important as it is on the flute. It can change the cleanness and tone of your playing. It can also help to bring the lower keyed whistles into a tighter rein when playing in the upper part of the second octave.
I have taught people who had originally just picked the whistle up and started playing and still had no idea why the whistle they had sounded so bad. I proceeded to play their whistle to see what the problem was and found no problem. On getting them to play again for me I noticed that they played with a loose sort of slack cheeked style. I used the 'blowing on hot soup' analogy as well as getting them to whistle with their mouth only, hold that shape and insert whistle. It was worth the look on peoples faces when they came to the realisation that it was the way they were getting the air needed in to the whistle in the correct way what was hampering them and not the whistle itself.
I still play at times (only sometimes, when I am resting my bad back) with a slack embouchure, usually in a session where I stick the whistle into the side of my mouth and lean back in my seat.

This is a question I've been thinking about, so I was pleased to see it discussed here, especially in MTGuru's links.

In a class I once took with John Skelton he railed against playing the whistle from the side of the mouth. He claimed that in playing the whistle embouchure is important, even if not as critical as it is with the flute. He rightly pointed out that when we play from the side of the mouth, we have very little muscle control and thus very little embouchure control.

I think this could be the same as what Ceili_whistle_man was saying about "slack embouchure."

Having that fipple on the end of he whistle can lull us into lazy habits. It looks so easy!

Thanks, MT Guru, for the ideas on how to actually improve my embouchure.

When I first tried a Syn low D, I found a pronounced difference in sound based on how much of the mouthpiece was inside my mouth. Also significant differences based on mouth tension.

Fascinated by this much variability, I then held the whistle sideways like a flute and proceeded to blow across the open end, directing most of my air into the open mouthpiece. The result was a nice, breathy flute-like sound good across the full range.

So at least on some whistles, I would have to say that embouchure is a real factor.

Just another thought: I have never used, that is read, a whistle tutor book or seen an instructional video. Does embouchure get covered in these books/videos? I don't mean the "Don't blow too hard or the whistle will sound shrill" type of instruction, but a proper description of what shape one should be trying for on the inside of ones mouth and the tensioning/relaxing of the muscles in the cheeks/mouth.

Ceili_whistle_man wrote:Just another thought: I have never used, that is read, a whistle tutor book or seen an instructional video. Does embouchure get covered in these books/videos? I don't mean the "Don't blow too hard or the whistle will sound shrill" type of instruction, but a proper description of what shape one should be trying for on the inside of ones mouth and the tensioning/relaxing of the muscles in the cheeks/mouth.

I have never seen the subject treated by any instructor or tutor (although mind you I never had any instruction or used a tutorbook) and to be honest I think you're making a lot of nothing. A touch of the Grey L. school of over-analysing and making everything much more complicated than it is, which in turn can only get in the way of playing music.

In time you will learn to control your breath, like playing any instrument you need to listen to yourself all the time and adjust as best you can to get the best sound you're able to.

Peter Laban wrote:A touch of the Grey L. school of over-analysing and making everything much more complicated than it is, which in turn can only get in the way of playing music.

Yes and no, I think. I suspect it never really occurs to some players to experiment with embouchure, and some whistles are surprisingly responsive to embouchure changes. So suggesting and considering a few explicit, simple things to try in terms of angle, tightness, mouth shape etc. doesn't seem like such a terrible sin.

I'm self-taught, too. But as a teacher, I've found that individual student learning modalities in just about any field range from analytical to holistic and anything in between. Technique isn't art, but there can be differing and complementary approaches to accommodating learners according to their cognitive positions along that spectrum, toward the same goal of musicality of performance, and comfort and competence with one's chosen instrument.

That said, the "talk (and analyze) less, play (and listen) more" approach definitely has it's place.

Peter Laban wrote:

In time you will learn to control your breath, like playing any instrument you need to listen to yourself all the time and adjust as best you can to get the best sound you're able to.

Agreed Peter, But those learners who I helped correct in the way they were blowing into their whistle would probably still be doing the same thing if not for being shown what it was that needed changing to get the sound they were after. I just think that a bit of direction in the best way to get the correct air into a whistle would be a good thing to put in any tutor right at the start.
I'm not so much 'making a lot out of nothing' but rather I am asking a simple question of any beginner who may not be aware of such a simple way to cure (what I have found through teaching whistle) a common problem.
Over analyzing? Who me? Nooo.no..no, I am the least analytical person you could meet.
So.... if a learner was to listen to themselves all the time but didn't know what it was that they were doing wrong, how would they fix it?
(I know the obvious answer is ask some one who has more experience in playing, which is what happened in my whistle teaching situation)
I have had learners who have had a years experience or so of playing at home on their own with no contact with anyone who plays whistle, they've come to me and I have been able to rectify some really simple faults in their playing. Some people don't know they are over blowing, or are not blowing into the whistle in a way that optimizes the whistles air requirements.
It's a good feeling knowing that you have made someone realise that they are not crap at playing the whistle, they just needed a few pointers to put them in the right direction.

Ceili_whistle_man wrote:Just another thought: I have never used, that is read, a whistle tutor book or seen an instructional video. Does embouchure get covered in these books/videos? I don't mean the "Don't blow too hard or the whistle will sound shrill" type of instruction, but a proper description of what shape one should be trying for on the inside of ones mouth and the tensioning/relaxing of the muscles in the cheeks/mouth.

I have four different tutorial books, and none of them mention embouchure.

I started by learning fife, and had developed one, but when I picked up the whistle, it did not occur to me that I would need it. When I started to get twittery, broken sounds in DEF, I found that by using embouchure, the sound was cleaned up. So, I put 2 + 2 together and figured it out.

I am teaching my daughter to play (9), and she started with the slack jaw style too, and had a tough time producing even a G. After a few moments correcting that, she was doing just fine and was playing Merrily We Roll Along within twenty minutes.

Robert

I've got a low d whistle I made and have been tinkering with off and on for a while. At times, it seemed to play at its best if I concentrated by blowing from my diaphragm and relaxed the muscles somewhat in my mouth. I keep messing around with the whistles windway, etc., thinking to myself, "If only it was a flute, I could easily change the direction of the airstream.

Michael

''The Complete Irish Tinwhistle Tutor'' by L.E. McCullough addresses Embouchure on page 12. What it amounts to is pursing the lips so that when playing the lower octave there is subtle air moving into the whistle, and then by slightly rolling or moving the whistle out the lips obstruct the in hole creating more pressure to obtain the second octave. It works but could be very timely to learn to play that way all the time.

I agree with Peter in that breath control is far more important than any facial contortions to change air flow. It may be that when some players think they are working on their whistle embouchure they are actually changing the air flow to the fipple. Good breath control comes from the diaphragm.



OK, flame on.

It think that the need for embouchure use can also vary a good deal between whistles. My Copeland Low D's for example demand the use of an exacting embouchure all the time, or else they will laugh at you while you lie beaten on the floor! Other whistles can be more forgiving, but I would agree that most low whistles benefit from the use of a good embouchure. I started paying more attention to my embouchure after watching this video:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qVztCC37w ... re=related

I think that too much overanalyzing can be detrimental as well, however a balance is required as some level of technique is required to play at all, let alone well. Besides, I thought that's what this forum was for, to obsess over and over analyze whistles?