Michael Burke whistles - thumbhole

Glorfindel · Post by **Glorfindel** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:03 pm

I'm considering getting a Michael Burke whistle. But I'm conflicted on whether I should get the thumbhole. Those of you who have the thumbhole...I'd like to hear what you think about it...if you find it really helpful.... if you find it somewhat distracting.... do you like it.... what do you think?

Feadoggie · Post by **Feadoggie** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:20 pm

Glorfindel, welcome to the board.

I have 20+ Burke whistles in different keys and materials. They are fine whisltes. I do have two Burke high D whistles with the thumbholes and I rarely put them to use. In fact I have taped over the holes so as not to be bothered with them. One whistle is an aluminum narrow bore and the other is a brass session bore. You really do not need those holes.

My original thinking was that the thumbhole would give me a stable and strong C natural for slower tunes. And it does do that. But I still use the the half-holed C and the cross-fingered C in all cases. Neither fingering is weak. The OXX OOO is tuned pretty well and with a little finger vibrato....it holds up nicely.

Just my thoughts others may differ in their opinions.

Feadoggie

Ctrl Alt Del · Post by **Ctrl Alt Del** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:41 pm

Welcome to the forum Glorfidel.

In some ways I can't help you

I posed a similar question and decided to go without the thumb hole.

Here's a link to a couple of threads recently on the topic that may help. Happy decision making and then happy whistling.

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=57143

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=56822

Dana · Post by **Dana** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:26 pm

Feadoggie wrote: I do have two Burke high D whistles with the thumbholes and I rarely put them to use. In fact I have taped over the holes so as not to be bothered with them. One whistle is an aluminum narrow bore and the other is a brass session bore. You really do not need those holes.

Feadoggie, why don't you send me that narrow bore D with the thumb C hole? I need one of those.

Dana

Feadoggie · Post by **Feadoggie** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:42 pm

Dana wrote:Feadoggie, why don't you send me that narrow bore D with the thumb C hole? I need one of those.

Top five reasons not to send Dana the DAN:

1. I really hate to break up a set.
2. I've grown accustomed to it's face.
3. It's one really sweet whistle.
4. I do use the whistle but not the thumbhole
5. Since retirement, I may not be able to afford another new one.

Shame this didn't come up when I bought the Copely flute from you a few years back. I've had this DAN since 2004 and could have bought another new one back then.

Feadoggie

TODDLEMM · Post by **TODDLEMM** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:58 pm

Against some advice, I purchased 2 Burkes with thumbholes, both narrow bore whistles (I find them sweeter and quieter), and I love them. Took me a couple hours to get used to, but they play great and very much in tune. The hole also makes it easy to play fast runs.

Mike Burke told me that if it were up to him, he'd make all his whistles with thumbholes. He says its pretty much a no-brainer.

Also...ya don't have to use it if ya don't wanna....just leave your thumb on it. I use my whistles to play all kinds of music, from jazz and blues to trad to Sesame Street tunes, and I find the C hole to be fun and useful.

More advice to take or not. Everyone will also tell you they're harder to sell with the hole if you a whistle-flipper.

Todd

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:51 pm

i got a burk DAN with a thumbhole, used.

I had been playing close to 10 years when I did, and i found the thumbhole to be in a spot that I didn't normally put my thumb.

I ended up taping it over with scotch tape and using it like a normal DAN.

HarpsichordMan · Post by **HarpsichordMan** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:36 pm

I've had a brass session D for a few days. Still undecided on the thumhole. I would say that it is located lower than I would like -- opinion based upon having played various pitch recorders for many years. I opted for it for better tuning, but as I said, am not sure I would do it again.

MTGuru · Post by **MTGuru** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:54 pm

TODDLEMM wrote:Mike Burke told me that if it were up to him, he'd make all his whistles with thumbholes. He says its pretty much a no-brainer.

Hmmm ... So Mr. Burke, who is an outstanding whistle maker but, as far as I know, not an accomplished whistle player, is suggesting that those of us customers who are in fact fairly skilled are brainless if we don't want or need a thumbhole?

I guess it's fortunate then that it's not up to him, that he does listen to his customers' preferences, and doesn't make all his whistles with thumbholes. Otherwise there would be a lot of taped-up Burkes.

Yeah, I know I'm being a bit provocative

, and I'm sure it's not quite what was meant. I know Michael is a good guy. And I've said before that a thumbhole is perfectly OK, if that's what you want.

But if I'm going to pay a premium price for a whistle to meet my needs, I sure don't want the maker dictating to me what my needs are. If you don't like a particular design, regardless of the reasons behind it, there are always other choices. For example, as much as I enjoy the sound of John Sindt's whistles, his apparent reluctance to address the C-nat issue puts his whistles lower on my list than they would otherwise be. Which is rather a shame.

Dana · Post by **Dana** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:38 pm

Feadoggie wrote:
Dana wrote:Feadoggie, why don't you send me that narrow bore D with the thumb C hole? I need one of those.
Top five reasons not to send Dana the DAN:

Oh well, I tried...

[tarnation, I need an eye-rolling emoticon!]

Dana

FJohnSharp · Post by **FJohnSharp** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:51 pm

If we're voting I vote no thumbhole. I'm a traditionalist with almost no recorder experience.

TODDLEMM · Post by **TODDLEMM** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:29 pm

You are right as usual, MTGuru!

Mike told me most of his customers prefer no hole, and even made me wait to decide, to be absolutely sure I wanted one, before he sent me my whistles. What a cool guy! He is a manufacturer, and must provide the market what the market will buy.

But...the point was that if one is new to whistling, why not make life easier? In my experience, C nat holes make the whistle easier to play and easier to play in tune. Sure, if you've been playing for years, why change horses in the middle of the stream (to quote Tower of Power), but if the whistle is a new instrument to you, why not make life easier. I'll bet the hole-try-and-tapers have been playing sans holes for years.

In my humble opion, the music is more important than the instrument
...that's why we're musicians, not instrument players. Buy good horns, and learn to play them well. If you learned on whistles without c holes, and play great on them, keep 'em, and keep playing.

That said, if you are broke, buy a Jerry Freeman whistle, either a Mellow Dog or a tweaked Gen blue top nickel....both great whistles.

Michael Burke · Post by **Michael Burke** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:49 pm

Hi,
I don't like to get into the discussions but like to lurk about but I think I should say that I have never said or considered anyone who does not use a thumbhole as brainless. I probably did use the expression "no brainer" but I was speaking as an engineer and maker. MT Guru is exactly right on my lack of playing ability, so let there be no mistake about that.

.
I really don't believe it has anything to do with ability to play, but more on what you are used to playing and how much range you want the instrument to have. Adding the thumbhole puts an accurate natural C into a D whistle that has the same tonal color and feel as all the other notes on the whistle. Cross fingered Cs work pretty well on whistles with thicker tonehole walls and not well at all on thin walled and narrow bore instruments. Half holing is a great way to solve the problem and get a nice C in the octave as well and I have spoken to all Ireland champions that use that method and tell me that the cross fingered C is "too slow". Now Brian McCoy of the Kells will not play a whistle without a thumbhole and I may have quoted him in my "no brainer" comment. I have samples of his playing on my homepage and I don't believe there are any players in my acquaintance who can play better than Brian and I know a lot of very good players. Many of those great players, like Kathleen Keane, for example, do not use thumbholes at all, so the player's ability has nothing to do with this preference. I hope that I did not offend anyone with this comment in a private email that was quoted here. I would never have come out and spoken in a disrespectful manner to anyone, specially to people who are nearly all much better players than me. I do listen to the very best players, though, and follow their advice, so I am not without guidance. Joanie Madden has suggested several ideas to me, including the black tipped heads and the rotating bottom tonehole on my low whistles. I have consulted with Mick O'Brien one of the very best Pipers in the world and a fine whistle player as well on all my instruments and their development.
It is my passion for making better instruments that make feel strongly about issues that I have researched and I do hold the opinion that the thumbhole is a great thing that greatly expands the ornamentation possibilities of the instrument. If another holds a differing opinion, I respect that and will listen to their ideas. Again, this is not my own opinion but that of really great players who use them and have demonstrated the expanded capabilities to me. I read every thread where this comes up and consider them well. I make almost 90% of my whistles without thumbholes, because I first and foremost want to please the customers that consider buying my whistles. That is why I lurk, because many of you have ideas that can help me make better instruments, so please do not believe that I don't deeply respect your opinions, one and all.
All the best
Mike

falkbeer · Post by **falkbeer** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:42 am

I have no personal experience of whistle with a thumb hole, but I play the whistle , the recorder and the flute. The fingering on these instruments are all different and I can sometimes be a bit confused when swiching between the instruments. More so when playing the same tune. I think it fine with hybrid instruments. A friend of my play the 11 stringed alto guitar. He is thus able to play Bach´s lute music without changing anything in the score. My only concerne is that it must be a bit tricky when you have both whistle with and without a thumbhole. If you have learned a tune on one instrument you have to, more or less, relearn the tune on the other instrument. As I have to do when playing a whistle tune on the recorder. And ornaments and stuff doesen´t always work on the other instrument. The best solution would probably be to decide which type instrument you want to play and stick to either a whistle with a thumb hole or a traditional whistle.

Just a question. Is the fingering with a whistle with a thumb hole the same as on the flute. (lift your thumb and you´ll get a C nat. and the index finger too and you´ll get a C sharp.)

TODDLEMM · Post by **TODDLEMM** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:58 am

It was I, TODDLEMM, who quoted Mr. Burke about the thumbhole issue. Sorry to create such a controversy....my mom died earlier tonight, and I responded in a very stressful condition...that said...

Mike's "no-brainer" comment was contextual...and did not imply that those who bought whistles without c holes were brainless (MTGuru was being personal)...he was just saying that the C nat thumbholes made the whistles much easier to play in tune....

I'm sorry..I know can be a pain, and have no desire to influence anyone's whistle choices....buy whatcha want...but from my heart, Michael Burke is the best whistle maker alive.....

Sorry to Mike, and I understand if you refuse to sell to me again.

Todd