Wide-bore high D harder to play?

[Jason Paul]

I've been wondering about this lately.

I have two C/D sets - a Mellow Dog set and an O'Brien nickel plated copper set. In both cases, the D is harder to play than the C.

By "harder to play", I just mean that I'm more likely to have a few honks and squawks. I just have to babysit my breath control a little more. I wouldn't say that they're HARD to play, just that they take a little more attention.

I know that several makers make wide-bore high Ds. Has anyone compared the standard-bore to wide-bore whistles from the same maker? Does the standard-bore seem easier to play?

I know that there's an optimal ratio of bore diameter to length, and I'm wondering if a wide-bore high D is pushing the limit.

Is it a better idea to get a separate C and D, rather than a C/D set for this reason.

Any comments on this?

Thanks,
Jason

[CranberryDog]

All I play is wide/session bore high Ds. I find that smaller bore take more attention as I tend to over blow the narrow bores; whereas, with the wide bore I can "lean into" it and get more dynamics.

I have found that the Burke narrow bores aren't skittish like a Generation, Feadog etal.

[pancelticpiper]

With whistles, the smaller the bore the weaker the low register and sweeter and easier the 2nd register, the bigger the bore the fuller and stronger the low register but the more recalcitrant or balky the 2nd register. The ideal whistle would magically change bore size when you switch registers.
But, reality as it is, whistle bore is a compromise.
Many of us old-timers grew up with Generations. A good Generation has a full enough low register and a very easy and sweet 2nd register.
Susato and Burke (and probably more) offer high D's and high C's with two different bore sizes. Buy one of each and you'll quickly learn what I'm talking about.
I have a good Generation D and a "session bore" Burke D and the difference is fairly subtle.

[peeplj]

I think high D whistles in general tend to take better breath control than do C whistles...I also think B-flat whistles are better still.

B-flat whistles seem to be a kind of "sweet spot" to me--very easy to play, very easy to control. The low notes are low enough to have a nice bit of resonance, and the high notes are in a range where they aren't very shrill.

Of course, that said, every whistle is different, as is every whistler, so my usual disclaimer applies: just my $.02, and your mileage may vary.

--James

[Tres]

I have found that the Burke narrow bores aren't skittish like a Generation, Feadog etal.

I'll echo that. My narrow bore Burke is the easiest to play whistle I've ever tried. Its just hard to make that sucker squawk!

Tres

[wd40]

Hmmm. I have a mellow dog c/d set with one of Jerry's tubes(d). Idon't find either hard but for me the d is a little easier on the transition to the upper notes. The c acts more like my regular ol feadog d. This is a great question though. I've wondered about this because of my syn set.

[Leahcim]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the wide bores also have a greater range of volume? I mean that if you play a note softly, you can gradually blow harder and increase the volume of that note with out actually changing the tone.

[peeplj]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the wide bores also have a greater range of volume? I mean that if you play a note softly, you can gradually blow harder and increase the volume of that note with out actually changing the tone.

That has more to do with backpressure, in my experience, than with bore width.

The higher the backpressure, the more within certain limits you can vary the breath pressure without having a noticable change in pitch.

There are also some whistles, like the Feadog, that have a noticable timbre change when blown with suddenly more force...this is a useful effect, as it lets you make notes "pop out." But it's more of a special effect and not quite the same as the control you have with a whistle like an Overton, that has some real volume control capabilities.

My $.02--your mileage may vary.

--James

[Jason Paul]

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't say that the Mellow Dog is hard to play - just that the D body is harder than the C body.

I'm not comparing these to other whistles in this thread.

Thanks,
Jason

[pancelticpiper]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the wide bores also have a greater range of volume? I mean that if you play a note softly, you can gradually blow harder and increase the volume of that note with out actually changing the tone.

Whistles and recorders, because of the fixed tone production system (the fipple etc) only play in tune at one pressure level.
Don't believe it? Look at the needle on an electronic tuner and vary your blowing pressure: more pressure, sharper; less pressure, flatter.

[CranberryDog]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the wide bores also have a greater range of volume? I mean that if you play a note softly, you can gradually blow harder and increase the volume of that note with out actually changing the tone.

Whistles and recorders, because of the fixed tone production system (the fipple etc) only play in tune at one pressure level.
Don't believe it? Look at the needle on an electronic tuner and vary your blowing pressure: more pressure, sharper; less pressure, flatter.

Pancelticpiper, on another thread you used the term "action" to describe a whistle's playing atttributes; as a guitarist might describe a guitar as having a good "action". I think you are on to a useful term for whistles.

After all, we are taliking about producing accurate tones on a whistle and the facility to do so. For example, rather than say my Feadog Pro is hard to play, meaning that it's action is not as fogiving as a say a Burke DBSBT; meaning, in the case of this thread, it's hard to play because breath control is more critical; and finger placement is less forgiving.

It might be an idea for a different thread to disscus what factors on a whistle contriubte to a good "action". Cheers, Cyril.

[Tommy]

I've been wondering about this lately.

I have two C/D sets - a Mellow Dog set and an O'Brien nickel plated copper set. In both cases, the D is harder to play than the C.

Does the Mellow Dog set have one head for both the C&D tone tube or is there two separate heads one for each tone tube?

[emtor]

With whistles, the smaller the bore the weaker the low register and sweeter and easier the 2nd register, the bigger the bore the fuller and stronger the low register but the more recalcitrant or balky the 2nd register. The ideal whistle would magically change bore size when you switch registers.

Quite correct, but what about conical whistles? Would they act as a compromise between a big bore and a small one, favouring both octaves a bit better?

[Jason Paul]

Tommy,

The Mellow Dog is one head (tweaked Feadóg C), and two bodies (the original Feadóg C, and a Mellow D).

Jason

[CranberryDog]

With whistles, the smaller the bore the weaker the low register and sweeter and easier the 2nd register, the bigger the bore the fuller and stronger the low register but the more recalcitrant or balky the 2nd register. The ideal whistle would magically change bore size when you switch registers.

Quite correct, but what about conical whistles? Would they act as a compromise between a big bore and a small one, favouring both octaves a bit better?[/quote

Hi Erik,

My experience with balance between octaves has shown that with hand made cylinder bore whistles, the maker strives to balance the octaves. With mass produced whistles, this seems not to be the case.

Burke and Reyburn both makers of cylinder bore whistles strive to achieve balance by using purturbations or bore inserts. I find it works very well as both my Reyburn session wide bore high D and Burke DBSBT wide bore are not only in tune in both octaves but are nicely balanced volume wise.

My Copeland high D with conical bore as well as quality Irish flutes which also have conical bores are well balanced and in tune. I believe the conical bore does contribute to a better balance. Another nice thing about conical bore whistles is that the sound holes can be placed closer together; of course, this is more significant in low whistles. Cheers, Cyril.