Switching quickly between notes -BCB- without overlap?

[Key_of_D]

Well you want to be careful about using tonguing in order to hide your false fingering... Make sure your fingering is clean first, then add the tonguing.

-Eric

[KatieBell]

Tonguing doesn't come naturally to me (I've seen other beginners who say they seem to tongue between every note). What I seem to naturally do is what I assume was meant when I saw someone refer to 'throating.' I close my throat with the back of my tongue between notes, which I'm trying to break myself of. It isn't very easy on this tune considering the vast amount of repeat notes.

If someone were to listen carefully, he'd hear uh-uh-uh-uh coming from my throat as I play. Concentrating on that while trying to keep up the speed isn't helping with the fingering, so I'm concentrating on the fingering alone right now and have seen improvement in the transition when going slowly. I figure if I can do it slowly, I can learn to do it quickly. We'll see if I'm right, huh?

[Key_of_D]

Well Katiebell, someone once told me, slow in the right, is better than wrong in the fast... Very words to live by in ITM music as far as I'm concerned when it comes to learning.

-Eric

[BoneQuint]

Hm, I don't think anyone mentioned this, so I guess I will...

Try lifting the top finger just a tiny bit BEFORE you put down the two for the C-natural. If that finger is late, then trying to make it early may very well make it simultaneous. And if it is a little early, the C# "blip" that you may get is much less noticable than a G "blip."

I've found this is a good trick for many passages, even when going from an F to an A, for example, it's better to be a bit early on the top finger than late with it. Actually, if the music is fast enough, a very convincing "FAF" can be done by just lifting the one finger.

[KatieBell]

Thanks, Bone.

I'm still about the same. I'm OK going very slow but getting the blip when I speed up. It's what I get for not starting with things like Dawning of the Day.

I'm trying it out and practicing! Will let you know how it goes. I'm getting decent enough with some of the tunes that I could actually let others hear me, so I know it is getting better overall.

[Blaydo]

Seriously Katie, as has been said, just half hole the Cnat. It's quicker, easier and sound better. All you've to do is roll your finger up a bit and put it back down, can't get any easier than that!

[johnnyboi]

I'll echo what peeplj said.

Coming from a piping background, the rogue sounds between notes (like the G you're getting) they call 'crossing noises' and the piper spends a lot of time trying to iron them out and get clean changes [especially between D (xxx ooox) and E (xxo xxxo) -ouch!]

Practise the change slowly and deliberately and then later speed it up. It will come in time.

In my opinion half-holing is only a temporary solution, because other combinations of notes will cause you similar trouble (that you won't be able to half hole) and you'll need to work to get it clean.

[pancelticpiper]

One thing which hasn't been mentioned, is that sometimes you WANT that little G to sound when going from B to C natural. On the uilleann pipes, many pipers intentionally put in a lower gracenote there, accenting the C natural before the usual glide (gliding up to C natural is a feature of most uilleann piping).
But you should practice the B-C-B note change, like any other note change, so that you can play it clean as...well...a whistle.
As BoneQuint mentioned, a strategy used by some Highland pipe teachers to deal with this problem, which is bigger on the GHB due to its half-closed fingering system, is to practice the movement with a split-second of openness, the theory being that you practice the opposite of what your fingers want to do in order to get them to do what YOU want them to do. So if your fingers tend to do:
xoo ooo
xxx ooo
oxx ooo
you practice the opposite:
xoo ooo
ooo ooo
oxx ooo
That momentary C sharp is made as short as possible, and eventually disappears.
Going from C natural back to B is simply a reverse of the above.
I have new students on whistle, flute, or uilleann pipes learn "Polly Put The Kettle On", which begins:
/Cded CAAC / BCdC BGGB / etc
which forces them to clean up these troublesome passages from the get-go.
Attempting to dodge or mask the issue by tonguing or half-holing is a poor substitute for learning how to finger properly.

[Key_of_D]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned huh... Reading sometimes helps a bit...

If you think tunes with BCB phrases are tricky, wait till you get to reels such as Repeal of the Union, Road to Lisdoonvarna (reel) Killavil Fancy, those'ill make you think twice about calling a BCB phrase tricky!!

Seriously though, just practice, and as someone else stated, you don't have to practice those BCB's in a tune, just play those 3 notes over and over and over... but remember to start off slow, so that you develop the control to doing this sequence cleanly, just as you're desiring. I'm chiming in, because I too remember when those BCB's were giving me the same hardship as you're describing Katiebell, and I did just what I mentioned, and within no time, problem solved.

However such as Guinness mentioned, that G overlap as you call it, can also be considered a techique for tapping C natural, (such as when playing a B or an A note first then briefly depending on the feel you're wanting to achieve, hit the G then on up to C natural. Or as I like to do, I'll bend the C natural doing all the above for even more color especially in slow airs) and when used efficiently can add some color to your playing. But one thing at a time... You can't learn everything in one day!

Best,

-Eric

[Stevie D]

Thinking about it, as a stop-gap you could do a standard-issue three-note roll on the B, which is to say B-(cut)-B-(hit)-B. Depends how crucial that C is to the tune.

[jemtheflute]

Half-holing sucks, IMO, unless you positively want the bending effect of rolling or sliding the finger half off the hole and back. I also think it is harder - certainly to get an accurately pitched C. I agree with everyone who has said practice it slowly, practice it tongued and un-tongued, get the finger swap clean (it will come) and gradually speed it up. Same goes for any awkward finger change.

[Key_of_D]

Half-holing sucks, IMO, unless you positively want the bending effect of rolling or sliding the finger half off the hole and back. I also think it is harder

If that's true then shouldn't half-holing qualify for what you said below?

Same goes for any awkward finger change.

[jemtheflute]

Of course - I'm not saying don't do it/practice it, just that I'm not keen on it unless I want the glissando effect that is virtually unavoidable in using it between neighbouring notes on the same tone-hole. That is not so much an issue when coming to a half-holed fingering from a more distant note, e.g A to Fnat. Even in such situations, personally I prefer cross fingering if one is available - and there are very good ones for Cnat. F on the other hand, one has little choice on most whistles but to half-hole.
Also, we are advising someone having issues with the change in question - I think it is easier (but not necessarily easy) to learn (with the appropriate/necessary practice) the finger change than to learn the half-hole.

[Key_of_D]

Well said, and personally, Jem, I agree. Especially looking at it for the beginner's standpoint. But you never know, as we found out, some think half-holing C is easier, so I guess again, whatever works best for you.

-Eric

[jkrazy52]

so I guess again, whatever works best for you.

That's it in a nutshell. You try each way and use the one that works for you and works best in the piece of music being played. Some songs/tunes I half-hole the Cnat - some I don't. None of the methods come easily at first. Practice is the key.