Ornamentation - Cut - Query

[EscapePod]

Hi All
I am after some clarification from the experienced Penny Whistle players here regarding Cuts.
The Book I am using to teach myself how to play the whistle, indicates that T3 is used.

I recently purchased another Book and the preferred method is to use B3, B2, B1, T3, etc, etc.

Is it worthwhile learning the second method instead of the first?

What do seasoned players here use?

It is my intention at some stage to learn and perfect the Low D. The Author of the most recent Book has indicated that this method pays off dividends in the long run.

As I am only in the early stages of learning Ornamentation, I would prefer to get it right the first time. Not have to re-learn at a later time down the track.

Your input would be appreciated.

EscapePod

[cavefish]

it all depends usually it is the next one up -if your playing a D , take you finger of the D-------or G you can use any finger find the one that suits you , you could E or F or do a crans (A,E,F) just use the one that does not bring a new note in only stutters the one your on "smoothly"

[EscapePod]

cavefish
Thank you for responding. I will take note of what you have suggested.

EscapePod

[sbhikes]

My guess is your new book is Grey Larsen's book. It doesn't hurt to learn his method, using the finger above whatever note you are cutting. But in my own opinion, and please do note that I am a beginner and so I don't know anything, sometimes other fingers just work better and sound better than the next one up.

[Wanderer]

I learned from the Bill Ochs book, and consequently, almost always cut using the 3rd and 1st fingers of the top hand.

[jemtheflute]

I agree with Diane, cut to whatever works best for you/your particular whistle for each note. There is one school of Irish orthodoxy that insists all cuts below A be done with T3, but cutting to the neighbouring higher note also has its proponents and is more flexible. It is the basis of what I do on both flute and whistle. If you have a series or sequence of cuts on the same main note, cutting to different higher notes each time can be effective, e.g. the three rolls on F# in the third section of The Lark in the Morning: you can, for example, cut the first roll with T2, the second with T3 and the third with B1, or the reverse, or any other permutation; whichever, it gives a subtly different feel to each one and is more interesting than simply thrice repeating the same roll, though that too may be included as a variation. I originally learnt Boehm flute and retain some habits from that, so I often cut E with B1 rather than B2 as a residue of Boehm F# fingering. It works fine. I don't think there is a "right" way as such. A large part of the skill of playing ITM well is the ability subtly to vary your interpretation of the melody (given the in-built repetitivity) and ornamentation is a major tool to that end, so the wider the range of techniques at your command the better.

[EscapePod]

sbhikes (Dianne), Wanderer & jemtheflute,
I appreciate you all taking the time to respond.
You would all be at a stage well above my expertise, so I value your input.

I will be away for almost a week from tomorrow onwards and will check back again after I return home.

Many thanks once again.

EscapePod

[Pyroh]

Well, I prefer to cut the hole above, not only with these two holes, as it sounds better to me I´m partly self-taught, so I did it like that, but mostly I see just two-holes cuts. It depends on your taste - if you prefer to use one type of cut, just do it.

[sbhikes]

sbhikes (Dianne), Wanderer & jemtheflute,
I appreciate you all taking the time to respond.
You would all be at a stage well above my expertise, so I value your input.

I will be away for almost a week from tomorrow onwards and will check back again after I return home.

Many thanks once again.

EscapePod

No no, I am a beginner too. I started with the whistle in April of this year while waiting for my flute to be built. I've been playing the flute now since July. I'm just obsessive which is why my post count is high and why I practice every spare moment every day that I can.

If I can offer more advice it is that at first it seems impossible. Don't put as many ornaments in as say, Grey Larsen, or whoever, would. Just put a few in where they are easy for you. Maybe don't put any in until you know the tune. Then relearn (painful as it is) the tune over again with more ornaments in, but only as many as you can manage.

(Also, I have recently realized that breathing is another "ornament", or at least a way to provide variation. I've learned that from the Fliuit Tutor.)

Meanwhile practice basic cuts and taps on the scales. Practice rolls, too, and don't get discouraged if they just don't sound right. You are training your muscle memory and eventually you will improve.

Eventually, with all the practice, it'll be easier and easier. It's not easy yet for me to put rolls or taps in but I feel like I'm making progress. I can usually put cuts in a few places with only a little struggle, and once in a while there's an easy place for me to put a tap. Rarely is there a place I can put a roll and when I do it doesn't sound quite right yet, but I feel it is all coming.

[AlonE]

I believe that he is better to use the finger of G since it is very easy, but once you dominate the technique gives equal if you use the finger of A or B. Is the same.

[Pyroh]

There are two things I´d suggest too for advanced beginners (sadly, they can´t be combined).

a) Write the ornaments to sheet music you have. It will help with orientation

b) Use MIDI, play the tune very very slowly - you can put ornaments there much more easily, then play it faster, faster - and suddenly you´ll find you can play it pretty well

[talasiga]

Oh I get it now - instead of using L or R you are using T for top and B for bottom. That makes it universal regardless of whether you're right or left handed. You see, I worked that out myself.

I like jem's post and I like the idea of flexibility. Flexibility is important, not so much for individual caprice, but for musical sensibilty.

For instance I can't see the point of a T1 (C#) cut if the piece is A Dorian (which has no C#) and the pieces minor modality is emphasised by accompaniment thats playing Amin chordal triad or arpeggio (namely A C and E). Better to cut with thumbhole or cross fingered C or more easily with B (T2).

Can you see how quickly I can learn a variety of jargon to faciltate communication with you? So why can't some of you understand my usage of indic sol-fa notation, which in the context of sheet music trads, is a simple and useful transpostion code ?

TB versus LR
Existential versus good/evil dichotomy.
I like it ......

[TheSpoonMan]

I like jem's post and I like the idea of flexibility. Flexibility is important, not so much for individual caprice, but for musical sensibilty.

Second that!

Can you see how quickly I can learn a variety of jargon to faciltate communication with you? So why can't some of you understand my usage of indic sol-fa notation, which in the context of sheet music trads, is a simple and useful transpostion code ?

Well, tala, if we were on an indian-oriented board, it would be our responsibility; but the truth is, we're not Point taken tho.

[talasiga]

its just a system that is useful. ethnicity has nothing to do with it. like we all use the arabic number system that orginated in India and is also known as Hindu-Arabic number system. We don't just use it for counting curry leaves and revert to Roman numerals for taxes and use apple seeds for counting leprechauns, do we?

[pancelticpiper]

Well I'm not a newbie- been playing whistle 30+ years, been to and taught many workshops etc. This idea of just using the next finger up, while is has the appeal of theoretical symmetry, simply isn't what most traditional players do.
On the pipes, on the whistle, on the flute, most traditional players use the upper-hand ring finger to cut bottom D, E, F#, and G. I don't think there's any theoretical reason why, they just do. But one idea put forth by an experienced fluteplayer was that, while doing rolls, it's better to seperate the work of the roll between the two hands whenever possible. So for E, F#, and G rolls the cut is done by the upper hand while the pat is done by the lower hand. Only when you get up to A and B do you use same-hand rolls. A can obviously be cut by either the topmost finger or the neighboring finger and you'll see traditional players doing both.
Now, there's a good reason NOT to use this traditional system of cuts on some flutes, because on some the upper-hand ring finger cut on the 2nd octave E sounds weakly. On that note I've found that it sounds stronger to use the lower-hand index finger.
I would take neat, pat theories of ornamentation devised by American players whose background is not ITM with a grain of salt, and analyse what the older Irish trad musicians do, at least if you are interested in playing ITM. (It's what the T stands for.)