Chiff and Fipple Forums

It seems to be with the most (D) whistles that the C nat. is never totally
'in tune', using 'standard' fingering (oxxooo)
For sure with the cheapies. But even with the 'high end' whistles is the C nat. never as in tune as the other notes. With the most, are with all the whistles i tested (from about 5 different makers)
Are am i wrong
And if so, why do we use oxxooo as 'standard' ??

The fingering oxx|ooo has been a standard for first-octave C-natural since the Baroque flute, where it is a very strong and well-voiced note.

Here are some whistles on which I've found this fingering to produce a well-in-tune C-natural, arranged in no certain order: Overton, Sweet, Susato, O'Brien, Serpent, and Walton Mello-D.

There are many others in which the note is sharp but not so sharp that it isn't usable. To me, most inexpensive whistles fall into this category--Oak, Feadog, Clare, and Clarke especially, and Generation also if you pull back on the note a bit.

Also many of the more expensive whistles can use oxx|ooo but the note will be a bit sharp and oxx|xox may sound better: Burke, Hoover, Syn, and Black Diamond fall into this category for me. On the Syn in particular the note is so nicely voiced that I usually have to look at a tuner to make myself believe it really is almost 30 cents sharp.

--James

It's the closest in tune that's not terribly wierd to play. Tho oxo|ooo works if you're flat, and oxx|xox or oxx|xoo, or even oxx|xxo, those all work if you're sharp.

But eh, who needs an in-tune flat 7? To me that defeats the whole point of that note in most tunes. I mean, learn to get it in tune, but also learn to do crazy things with your C's (and F#'s for that matter).

My experience has shown that in general, the thicker walled whistles, ie: wodden bodies (like O'Riordans, Rose and Greenwods) tend to voice the oxxooo quite well for Cnat. Thinner walled versions: Gens, Oaks, even an old Burke I used to play quite a bit tended to like the oxxxox version a bit more. Pat O. mentions in his owners manuals that the taller chimney height makes for more effective (and expressive) cross-fingerings. It does seem that there may be some truth to this. But I'd deffer to the experts to be sure.

Loren? How bout it ol' bean?

Brian Lee wrote:My experience has shown that in general, the thicker walled whistles, ie: wodden bodies (like O'Riordans, Rose and Greenwods) tend to voice the oxxooo quite well for Cnat. Thinner walled versions: Gens, Oaks, even an old Burke I used to play quite a bit tended to like the oxxxox version a bit more. Pat O. mentions in his owners manuals that the taller chimney height makes for more effective (and expressive) cross-fingerings. It does seem that there may be some truth to this. But I'd deffer to the experts to be sure.

Sounds about right to me. Sometimes you can also use breath pressure to bring C-naturals into tune when just standard OXXOOO doesn't work quite right.

-Casey

Brian Lee wrote:Pat O. mentions in his owners manuals that the taller chimney height makes for more effective (and expressive) cross-fingerings.

Pat is absolutely correct about the taller chimney height of thick tubes being responsible for better cross-fingering.

On the tune Crested Hens, the c nat is what I'd call "prominent" in the tune. It's not the keynote, but it sure stands out in the B part of the tune. The Abell (mine is an older blackwood) is not only well in tune, but it has a very sweet and listenable c nat. Some whistles are in tune, but the c sounds wobbly or raspy. The Abell C nat sounds as good as any other note on the whistle, which is "outstanding". Great instrument!

My Humphreys pre-stealth is right on as well and so are my Albas. I also have a Feadog D that with the right breath pressure is right on. If you blow too hard you will have problems.

Ron

Gary Humphrey's whistles (I have 5 of them) are all dead on as far as

the C natural is concerned. My O'Riordans are all dead on as well. The

C natural on Pat O'Riordan's whistles plays as well as any other note on

the whistle. I also have a Clarke Sweetone with a dead on C

natural (must have gotten lucky with this one!)

-James

A Stor Mo Chroi......

raindog1970 wrote:

Brian Lee wrote:Pat O. mentions in his owners manuals that the taller chimney height makes for more effective (and expressive) cross-fingerings.

Pat is absolutely correct about the taller chimney height of thick tubes being responsible for better cross-fingering.

But there are plenty of thin walled whistles with oxx ooo c nats. Surely it's more to do with the placement and size of the top finger hole? The lower down the tube and therefore bigger the top hole the more air will come out making the c nat higher, the higher up the tube and smaller the top hole the c nat is lower.

Note... I haven't experimented with this, it's just a theory.

Brian Lee wrote:My experience has shown that in general, the thicker walled whistles, ie: wodden bodies (like O'Riordans, Rose and Greenwods) tend to voice the oxxooo quite well for Cnat. Thinner walled versions: Gens, Oaks, even an old Burke I used to play quite a bit tended to like the oxxxox version a bit more. Pat O. mentions in his owners manuals that the taller chimney height makes for more effective (and expressive) cross-fingerings. It does seem that there may be some truth to this. But I'd deffer to the experts to be sure.

Loren? How bout it ol' bean?

Yes, thicker walls (more chimney height to work with) helps, primarily because one can use undercutting of the tone holes to help adjust tuning, which helps with regards to having more options for tonehole placement, and sizing, which in turn can lead to better overall intonation of the scale through multiple octaves/registers.

With thin walled tube, you can't undercut toneholes at all, so you're much more limited in terms of where you can put the holes, and what sizes you can make them, leading to more compromises in tuning scale and the volume from note to note.


For those who say "my whistle X, Y and or Z's are all perfectly in tune" I'm going to have to disagree, and I suspect you haven't put them to a tuner. Regardless of what temperament a maker has chosen, few, if any whistles will have a perfect scale, I've not met one yet. My Abell is the closest, and I suspect it would sound "dead on" to many folks, but put to a tuner, it's scale compromises become evident.


One of the problems I think we see here on the message board, is that some whistles were truly meant to have certain notes sound much flatter than many of us are used to hearing. In other cases, a maker chooses a different cross fingering, and in still other cases, the whistles simply aren't designed or tuned by the maker as well as they could be. It's often difficult to sort that out, however in the end, one has to find an instrument one is happy with so, in getting back to the original question:


If one wants a truly "in tune" Cnat with volume equal to the other notes of the scale on their D whistle, then one is going to have to have either a dedicated additional thumb hole or keyed hole for that note. That is, unless one finds a whistle with a perfectly in tune cross fingered Cnat, that has other notes out of tune


Final options: Learn to live with it, or learn to half hole, or embrace the philosophy that the note is supposed to sound that way for particular types of music, and then play only that music


That said, of all the whistles I've actually put the test, the Abell has the most accurate scale, including the cross fingered Cnat, if we're talking equal temperament. This is hardly surprising, considering the maker's day job.


Loren

For those who say "my whistle X, Y and or Z's are all perfectly in tune" I'm going to have to disagree, and I suspect you haven't put them to a tuner. Regardless of what temperament a maker has chosen, few, if any whistles will have a perfect scale, I've not met one yet. My Abell is the closest, and I suspect it would sound "dead on" to many folks, but put to a tuner, it's scale compromises become evident.

That's exactly what i mean!
I tested whistles from different makers, from Generation to Dixon, Chieftain, Overton, Alba .. and no one was 'really' in tune. With a fine tuner, of course.
No C nat was sounding as in tune as the other notes.

I'm not saying i don't want to play the Cnat 'out of tune' (i'm doing nothing else). I was just wondering that there exists any whistle which isn't 'out of tune'.

Frederik Meesters wrote:

For those who say "my whistle X, Y and or Z's are all perfectly in tune" I'm going to have to disagree, and I suspect you haven't put them to a tuner. Regardless of what temperament a maker has chosen, few, if any whistles will have a perfect scale, I've not met one yet. My Abell is the closest, and I suspect it would sound "dead on" to many folks, but put to a tuner, it's scale compromises become evident.

That's exactly what i mean!
I tested whistles from different makers, from Generation to Dixon, Chieftain, Overton, Alba .. and no one was 'really' in tune. With a fine tuner, of course.
No C nat was sounding as in tune as the other notes.

I'm not saying i don't want to play the Cnat 'out of tune' (i'm doing nothing else). I was just wondering that there exists any whistle which isn't 'out of tune'.

Right, but again, you have to specify, what in tune means to you, because serious ITM musicians typically want something other than what a perfectly in tune equal temperament instrument would provide (even if there were such a whistle), but in fairness, since tin whistles are primarily for ITM, it stands to reason the majority of them wouldn't be tuned exactly to equal temperament, which in and of itself, isn't a failing, if it's by design.

Have you played an Abell?

Why not simply half hole instead of cross fingering the Cnat if it bothers you that much.

Other than that, you're option is to special order a whistle with a thumb hole for Cnat and learn to play that.


Loren

My Silkstone D+ alloy is right in tune there with OXX000 (+O) but I don't know where it stands re wall thickness related to other metal whistles. Its thicker than the brass Gen Bb, however. Perhaps the graduation from cylindrical to conical bore descending between the D and extra C hole helps with this.

Brian

brianormond wrote:My Silkstone D+ alloy is right in tune there with OXX000 (+O) but I don't know where it stands re wall thickness related to other metal whistles. Its thicker than the brass Gen Bb, however. Perhaps the graduation from cylindrical to conical bore descending between the D and extra C hole helps with this.

Brian

If the cross fingered Cnat is perfectly in tune, then some other part of the scale will be out of tune. Can't be helped, really. Even true conical bore instruments are never completely in tune throughout the scale, unless they are designed from scratch and executed to be keyed instruments.



Loren