Transcibing for whistle is so misunderstood!

[talasiga]

You havent answered me about what notes you play on the D whistle.

There is a modulation a little later to G major. Exact same line as what is played in F. So it is just played on a D whistle with the exact same fingerings as used on the C whistle.
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Interesting. and how is that notated in F key signature on your sheets? with 2 accidentals? or is ther some convention about these things?

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are you suggesting that musicians who read sheet music use it as tablature instead?

Steáfán Hannigan & David Ledsam state what I'm trying to get out nicely in The Low Whistle Book:

"A note to music arrangers - The D whistle is a concert pitch instrument...All other whistles are transposing instruments. It is easy to learn to read music on the concert instrument, but much more difficult to follow when confronted with transposing keys....I would recommend that when arranging for the whistle, all music should be written as for a D whistle (C concert). If another key is needed then an instruction of what whistle to use should be specified in the whistle part, and the score; the whistle part being transposed to suit the key. The score, of course, would be at concert pitch, un-transposed."

Personally, I would love it if arrangers and transcribers would use this method. Obviously, from the official score to Freedom, they don't!

P3 that is a comment for those writing for whistle music in the ITM type context where D is the king and not in an orchestral situ. see my point?
I dont want to type too much if you get my point already.

[picardy third]

Interesting. and how is that notated in F key signature on your sheets? with 2 accidentals? or is ther some convention about these things?

No. It's a typical modulation. When you modulate from the key F major to the key of G major, the key signature goes from 1-flat (B-flat) to 1-sharp (F-sharp).

I just did a quick search on Google to find a picture of some music with modulations. This is an example of going from the key of E major to F major to D major to E flat major to C major to B flat major, etc etc.
http://web.aanet.com.au/music/sound/modulations2.gif

P3 that is a comment for those writing for whistle music in the ITM type context where D is the king and not in an orchestral situ. see my point?
I dont want to type too much if you get my point already.

I see your point. But in ensemble music where each instrument's part is written out individually, even if the instrument is not the feature instrument, the individual's part is written to that instrument's specific tuning.

Maybe this will illustrate my point. I searched Google again for conductor's scores. Look at http://sacredinstrumentalpress.com/imag ... 0score.jpg
So notice how all the C instruments (flute, oboe, trombone, tuba, violin) have their parts written in the key of F major, all of the B-flat instuments (clarinet, trumpet, bass clarinet) have their parts written in G major, all the E-flat instuments (E-flat saxophone) have their parts written in D major. This is because a C on a trumpet (a B-flat instrument) is equal to B-flat on a piano (also a C instument). Their pitches are named differently. So if you gave the trumpet player the piano music and he played exactly what was written, the notes would sound whole step lower than what the piano was playing (not a very good sound!) So the trumpet player would have to transpose up a whole step to compensate for the fact that he is reading music written for a C instrument. In ensemble music, when the parts are written for each instrument, it is written in a key specific for that instruments tuning. (Just an aside, a lot of the time, the composite score will show all of the insruments in C concert pitch just to keep the conductor from losing his mind!) To make it easier on the player, they aren't required to transpose to their specific instrument. If that weren't the case, imagine the poor sax player (E-flat instrument) reading music for a C instument! They'd have to transpose every note on the sax up 9 half steps (or down 3 half steps and remember to play up an octave!) Sax may not "be king" on that tune, but let's certainly not torcher him by making him transpose!

I say all of that to say, I feel a whistle player's part in orchestral music should be written in a key comfortable to read for the whistle player. If I were handed music in G-sharp major, I could do it but it would be a pain. If I were using a G-sharp whistle, I'd have to think in terms of 6-hole note=G#, 5-hole note is A#, 4-hole note is B#, 3-hole note is C#.... Then if the music modulates to A major, grab my A whislte and now suddenly 6-hole note=A, 5-hole note is B, 4-hole note is C#, 3-hole note is D...holy crap! Would be nice if the music was written in D major and there is note sying "G# whistle" then later, still in D major with a note "A whistle". As we know, this is not always the case. Especially when everyone is handed piano music!

This fun!

[Denny]

of course it should be written that way...they do for every other transposing instrument.
The key of the whistle should be noted and the whistle part should be written for the named whistle.

[talasiga]

Interesting. and how is that notated in F key signature on your sheets? with 2 accidentals? or is ther some convention about these things?

No. It's a typical modulation. When you modulate from the key F major to the key of G major, the key signature goes from 1-flat (B-flat) to 1-sharp (F-sharp).
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of course it does. and?
the thing is you said the stuff was written in F and then you gave this eg

<<MI just did a quick search on Google to find a picture of some music with modulations. This is an example of going from the key of E major to F major to D major to E flat major to C major to B flat major, etc etc.
http://web.aanet.com.au/music/sound/modulations2.gif>>

which clearly shows different key signature to express mod.
therefore thats the answer to my question. that modulation is notated by changing key signature for the part. perhaps I am not understaning your short cut techno talk.

and if the composer had a low F whistle in mind for to play the notes of F sign. it is appropriate to notate in that signature and then change the signa. for the modul. part. if the stuff was notated as if though for a D whistle then how would you show a modulation WITHOUT changing key signature?

btw, i never seen boehm flautists change flutes, nor any other orchestral type changing instruments (hey, dont even mention percussion!) becuase they all have chromatic ocvereage. not so tin whistle. pls consider as pleasurable.

[picardy third]

Sorry, Tal, I read my earlier post:

it is clearly a soprano C whistle that the piece starts with which later mods to a soprano D

I wasn't clear and was expecting some mindreading! I should have mentioned it starts in F major and later modulates to G major. Never in my previous posts did I state that!

if the stuff was notated as if though for a D whistle then how would you show a modulation WITHOUT changing key signature?

There would be a note above the stave during the F major part saying "Soprano C Whistle" then at the mod a note saying "Soprano D Whistle". I know, it seems mindless to just think of all whistle music in terms of D major (Bm), G major (Em) or A major (F#m). As a whistle player it is comfortable. The music is a good example of why we have to think in other keys. (What's the deal?? I started out by criticizing the transcription and now I'm praising it??) I'm just saying in a perfect whistle world, this is how I would prefer my music written.

Your right, with chromatic instruments there is no need to change instruments! But there are B-flat and E-flat clarinets. There are several keys of saxophone and horn. And the old flute to piccolo switcheroo. But they would rarely make those switches in the middle of a piece. Diatonic harmonicas have to put up with the same thing whistle players do (the music would normally note which key of harmonica to use).

[Wombat]

Too few musicians would understand "A 'C' whistle is actually a Bb instrument, but please don't ask it to play in Bb. For that, you want a Bb whistle, which is actually a transposing Ab instrument."

Possibly they wouldn't understand it 'cos it's bollocks? Since when has a C whistle been a Bb instrument, or a Bb whistle "a transposing Ab instrument"? Oh please tell me, I've always wanted to be one of "The Few" ever since Churchill said such nice things about them.

I think what Chiffed means is that, if you think of a whistle as being like a saxophone or Boehm system flute minus a lot of keys, the instrument a C whistle would be like would be a Bb Soprano saxophone. If you play that instrument using standard whistle fingerings you get the notes C, D, Eb, F, G, A. On whistle, of course, you get E instead of Eb but otherwise the fingerings are the same.

[John S]

All this can be a write pain, I worked out years ago that my limited reading ability means I transpose into the fingering for a D whistle and use which ever whistle produces the right notes, I actually read in GHB position as well which can be useful but I like to have things in my fingers before I play.
It seems logical to me that all whistle parts should be written in the keys and modes of the D Whistle to make it easier for all of us to know were we stand.

John S

[Denny]

It does get easy after a bit.

'course ya gotta know intervals...

[picardy third]

Yeah, I agree. Seeing the notes as intervals relative to tonic is a great technique for transposing. Instead of thinking D, E, F#, G, A, B...thinking 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7..is useful. Any one who's been given a rhythm chart with Nashville numbering system understands how important this is!

[talasiga]

thanx for the courtesy of your responses P3rd. I have enjoyed.
I am not a sheet music music person and nor is the trad. I could be grouped under. I understand my interval realtionships for the several modes of scale used and can transcribe against the template of western named notes in my head. when mental blocked I use the twelve phalanges of my RH fingers as a diagram for the 12 semitones and by habit my thumb follows different interval patterns for dif. modes.