Grey Larsen on ornamentation... Really?

gallant_murray · Post by **gallant_murray** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:52 pm

johnkerr wrote:Overall, it's a good thing that he codified a lot of things related to technique that have previously been handed down orally. But I think there is a danger in that as well, because having things written down like that can cause people to think that it really is possible to learn just from the book - to take it as gospel, as it were - and really, that's not possible. Any treatise on Irish flute technique is really nothing more than a suggestion, because there's no way the book can convey the sound that needs to result from the techniques described.

You make a very good point here and have made good points overall. It is indeed important to listen an be "steeped" in the tradition. I also appreciate your comments about about folk music in general and how it is not an assembly line of parts. The issue for me is I will never have a teacher who has been steeped in the tradition. The best I'll ever get is Chieftain CDs and instruction books (and of course sites like this one). I can't just listen to ornamentation and figure out the physical process; I need the process to be broken down into steps. It seems that Larson does this (even if he does go a bit overboard). John, what do you think about Bill Och's book?
By the way, I'd like to mention that I really appreciate this conversation and how we've been able to share back and forth without getting worked up. John, your comments have been very helpful to me (as have everyones). Thanks.

gallant_murray · Post by **gallant_murray** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:55 pm

Denny wrote: just shut up and play

I think that if someone handed you an instrument you were unfamiliar with and then gave you those instructions, you might have some questions or objections. I do play...alot. I also learn.

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:57 pm

gallant_murray wrote: I can't just listen to ornamentation and figure out the physical process; I need the process to be broken down into steps. It seems that Larson does this (even if he does go a bit overboard). John, what do you think about Bill Och's book?

You didn't ask me, and I hope you don't mind my jumping in: Yes, I think you can figure out the physical process by ear. It involves recording yourself and listening back. But there is no physical process involved beyond picking up and dropping a finger on the whistle or flute. It's not hard, and it's not magic, but it has to sound right.

The Bill Ochs book is excellent, highly recommended. All you need.

gallant_murray · Post by **gallant_murray** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:02 pm

Bloomfield, I don't mind you jumping in. I welcome the advice. The fact is, I really do have a hard time playing rolls and other advanced ornamentation simply by ear. I know its not magic, but even you admit it has to be right. I need instruction beyond just listening. I think I might try out Ochs since it is so highly recommend by so many people.

lesl · Post by **lesl** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:22 pm

bloomfield said

I like the distinction he draws between articulation and ornamentation

what's that about? I'm not a good one for tech terms.

I like LE McCullough's whistle video. You can see as well as hear him.

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:42 pm

lesl wrote:bloomfield said
I like the distinction he draws between articulation and ornamentation
what's that about? I'm not a good one for tech terms.

I like LE McCullough's whistle video. You can see as well as hear him.

The point is simply that a cut is not a way of adding an additional note to the tune (like a grace note in [some] classical ornamentation) but a way of attacking a note, like tonguing. Staccato, legato, that sort of thing is called articulation. But if you listen, you can hear that a cut is just a blip as the attack to the note, and only someone who hasn't listened enough would, when playing Irish tunes from sheetmusic, ever get the idea that a cut sounds like an additional note.

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:34 pm

gallant_murray wrote:
Denny wrote: just shut up and play
I think that if someone handed you an instrument you were unfamiliar with and then gave you those instructions, you might have some questions or objections. I do play...alot. I also learn.

Questions yes objections no.

Did you ever read a book about a great painting?
You may learn a lot about the painting.
You may learn a lot about the technique used.
You will still have to teach the body preform the technique.
You will not learn how to paint a great painting.

Jason Paul · Post by **Jason Paul** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 8:27 pm

As for Bill Och's book, I have that one also (got it first). The instruction is very short. It's only about 80 pages and half of it or more consists of sheet music for the tunes. So the actual instruction is probably half of the book or less.

However the instruction, albeit short, is well-written and clear. Short and to the point with little to no fluff. Many people recommend it as a first tutor. It also starts from absolute zero, assuming you have little to no musical experience and can't read music.

Jason

johnkerr · Post by **johnkerr** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 8:36 pm

gallant_murray wrote: John, what do you think about Bill Och's book?

To tell you the truth, I've never seen it. Is it a whistle tutor? As I said earlier on, I play the flute, not the whistle (they are two totally different instruments that happen to share a common fingering system) so I tend not to notice whistle books. But it sounds like others here think well of it. And I do know that Bill Ochs was a friend and champion of the late Micho Russell, so if he's captured even a bit of the magic of Micho in his book it ought to be good.

Cynth · Post by **Cynth** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:06 pm

Bloomfield, O treasured one

, I'm sure it will come as quite a shock to you to hear that one who has sullied her hands and tainted her miniscule brain with the Larsen tutorial has decided that, rather than put hours into defending a cause that has so clearly been lost, her time would be better spent in getting ready for bed and steeping herself (like an old used up teabag I suppose, I mean one could simply say "listen") long and deeply in Ronan Browne and Peter O'Loughlin.
I guess I'd better do my peasant

and finger wiggling

exercises first though. Honestly.

What??? She listens to what? Irish traditional music?

Impossible! I mean... she has used the Larsen tutorial!

Surely she would prefer to paint by numbers!

Well, she would but she used up all the pictures in the box. More on order!

I know I don't mind you jumping in. *snort*

I'll try really hard to listen for those blips.

Puh-lease, give me a (Bleeping) break.

Ooooh, I think I smell a classroom.

NOT TO BE WORRIED, FOLKS. JUST A LITTLE JOKING AROUND. HONESTLY. *DOUBLE SNORT*

shadoe42 · Post by **shadoe42** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:47 pm

haha someone should use that finger waggling pic as an avatar

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:51 pm

Funny you should have picked up on the "steeping." I was getting a bit tired of that myself, but not tired enough to avoid it.

And I do tend to take myself too seriously, don't I.

Cynth · Post by **Cynth** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:06 am

Bloomfield wrote:Funny you should have picked up on the "steeping." I was getting a bit tired of that myself, but not tired enough to avoid it.

And I do tend to take myself too seriously, don't I.

Dude, don't spoil my fun by taking me seriously! Honestly, now I'll have to confess that we do benefit greatly by your thoughtful posts. Rats. Grrrr. I am seriously off to bed now.

Cynth · Post by **Cynth** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:30 am

More seriously, I should say that I certainly think johnkerr and Peter and Bloomfield are making some important points. I'm sure they are relieved to know that a beginner agrees with them

.

Whatever tutorial you use, the main thing is that you have to listen to the kind of music you want to play. If that's Irish traditional music, then that's what you need to listen too. I would say that you need to listen to a good musician playing the actual tune you want to play. You just cannot get the phrasing from sheet music. I have proved this to myself. The blips and bleeps and bloops are the least of my worries at this point. Actually getting the tune to sound like there's a reason for the notes to be there in the first place is what I need to be thinking about right now.

Bretton · Post by **Bretton** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:57 am

I'd been playing whistle for about a year and hadn't ever really gotten any type of ornamentation to work well or sound right. I had one lesson with Grey and he explained his version of what ornamentation was and how it worked, and I had a real epiphany (A sudden, powerful, and often spiritual or life-changing realization) about it all. It suddenly worked for me.
Once I had the idea in my head that cuts, taps, and rolls were just articulations, it all fell into place.

I didn't need a book, just the idea that ornaments are articulations. However, what worked for me may or may not work for others...I'm sure we all have slightly different ways of processing music and musical ideas/thought.

One last thought... once ornamentation clicked for me, not only was I able to play better, but I was able to listen better because I understood what was going on. Before, I didn't have any context for listening...I didn't have any framework in which to place what I was hearing.

my $.02.
-Brett