A man on the moon and whistles out of tune

[falkbeer]

Ok, this is just some thoughts. 1969 NASA landed a man on the moon. Man has proven himself in every field exept... making whistles in tune. It is just mind boggeling that people still can´t make it right. I mean, how hard can it be? If one make the prototype right, every whistle produce in a factory should be in tune, but alas... Generation are nice whistles but they are not in tune (A=440 Hz), neither with itself or with other instruments. Clarke Sweetone in C were also a big dissapointments. And I tryed Tony Dixon high D, also not in tune with itself. There are lots of examples of whistles out of tune.

Feadog and Sweetone D are nice examples of instruments that are well tuned.

It is perhaps more difficult to produce a well tuned whistle than putting a man on the moon?!

[Chief Wanganui]

Some musical instruments are better constructed than others.
It is the duty of musicians to play in tune at all times, if humanly possible.
End of rant.

[peeplj]

Look at it this way...the first spaceship came just decades after the first airplane.

By contrast, makers of simple system instruments have been working with the different compromises and trade-offs of various tuning approaches for hundreds of years.

--James

Edited to add: the Chief has it right. Good musicians don't play in tune so much because of their instruments as in spite of them.

[MrKaylian]

Good musicians don't play in tune so much because of their instruments as in spite of them.

Interesting point, as I've just got the first whistles I've played in this lifetime; a Howard Lo-D and Faedog Hi-D. On both of them I immediately find I can change the notes not only with my fingering but also with breath. From Day One that says a lot, don't you think..?

[fearfaoin]

If one make the prototype right, every whistle produce in a factory should be in tune

I don't think this is physically possible. There is a ratio of good to bad
products in every factory, it's called yield, and it will never be 100%
There will always be minute variations on the line. And Clarke can't
afford to have every whistle hand tested for tuning and still charge
<$20 for a whistle.

Also, due to instrument physics, it is really tough to get both the upper
and lower octaves exactly the same without resorting to keys, as is
done on Clarinets and boehm flutes. In fact, man has created in-tune
instruments, they're called the clarinet and boehm flute. If you want a
whistle, you have to blow things into tune sometimes. If you want keys
that assure in-tunedness, you have to move up to a different
instrument entirely.

[peeplj]

The Boehm flute is not automatically it tune.

I should know, I've played different models of them since I was 11.

In the first octave, the low end tends to be slightly flat, and the C-sharp is notoriously sharp as well as having a slightly different timbre than the notes around it.

In the second octave, F-sharp tends to have a slightly veiled quality, and tends a bit flat. Ditto on the 3rd octave F-sharp.

In the third octave, high E is a horrible note and tends to be sharp. Some flutes "correct" this with a split-E, but then some third-octave trills and alternate fingerings don't work.

The entire third octave tends to be sharp.

There are different "scales" in use on Boehm-system flutes that address these issues in different ways, but even $8000 flutes do not automagically play themselves in tune. It's up to the musician to do that.

--James

[fearfaoin]

The Boehm flute is not automatically it tune.

You're right, now that I think about it, the tonality of band instruments
depended on the player, too.

So, piano and harpsicord and organ and their ilk are probably the only
instruments that (once tuned) are in tune despite their players... Hm?

[peeplj]

The Boehm flute is not automatically it tune.

You're right, now that I think about it, the tonality of band instruments
depended on the player, too.

So, piano and harpsicord and organ and their ilk are probably the only
instruments that (once tuned) are in tune despite their players... Hm?

I'm sorry, I just can't resist.

Pianos and other equally-tempered instruments are deliberately out of tune, equally out of tune in all keys, allowing them to play with a certain baseline level of acceptability in all keys.

--James

[stevetcm]

I don't think this is physically possible. There is a ratio of good to bad
products in every factory, it's called yield, and it will never be 100%

That's only if it's old fashioned engineering. There's always this http://www.alexdenouden.nl/08/rapprod2.htm but it's going to put the price up a bit.

[walrii]

Putting a man on the moon was hardly a perfect exercise either. Dozens of things go wrong on every space flight (that's why they have backups for everything). On the first Lunar landing, the LEM almost ran out of fuel before they put it on the ground. Space flight, like every other human endeavor, requires constant adjustment to keep things in tune - hmm, sounds like playing the whistle!

[Cynth]

I don't think this is physically possible. There is a ratio of good to bad
products in every factory, it's called yield, and it will never be 100%

That's only if it's old fashioned engineering. There's always this http://www.alexdenouden.nl/08/rapprod2.htm but it's going to put the price up a bit.

I thought the paper layer technology was really amazing.

I have never played a wind instrument before, just the piano and guitar, and the idea that every note can be in or out of tune depending on so many things is a difficult one for me. I am learning to trust my ear a bit more---probably for no good reason---and it seems that one can get used to this concept. But if you come just from the piano, it really is a new idea.

[peeplj]

I have never played a wind instrument before, just the piano and guitar, and the idea that every note can be in or out of tune depending on so many things is a difficult one for me. I am learning to trust my ear a bit more---probably for no good reason---and it seems that one can get used to this concept. But if you come just from the piano, it really is a new idea.

The subject of tuning instruments is vast and deep.

If you want a bit of an intro, check out

http://pages.globetrotter.net/roule/temper.htm

This shows the complexity of just trying to get a scale that is in tune with itself. Actually tuning the wind instrument to the scale adds a whole new level of complexity.

--James

[Cynth]

I have never played a wind instrument before, just the piano and guitar, and the idea that every note can be in or out of tune depending on so many things is a difficult one for me. I am learning to trust my ear a bit more---probably for no good reason---and it seems that one can get used to this concept. But if you come just from the piano, it really is a new idea.

The subject of tuning instruments is vast and deep.

If you want a bit of an intro, check out

http://pages.globetrotter.net/roule/temper.htm

This shows the complexity of just trying to get a scale that is in tune with itself. Actually tuning the wind instrument to the scale adds a whole new level of complexity.

--James

Thank you! I've been looking for something that would help me out on this. I just need to get the courage to read it. I think if I just do one paragraph a day, it should be okay. Some of the ideas I have been exposed to before so it is just a matter of getting my brain to exert itself a bit.

Something tells me you've read this one:
Pythagorean Tuning and Medieval Polyphony
The article says that anyone who really wants to understand it all should read this book. I'm just going with the article, thanks.

[peeplj]

Something tells me you've read this one:
Pythagorean Tuning and Medieval Polyphony [....]
The article says that anyone who really wants to understand it all should read this book. I'm just going with the article, thanks. lol

I wish I had...if nothing else, just for the bragging rights!

In truth, I am no expert on tuning, and I would by no means say I really understand much of it at all.

Most of what I do understand came from spending some time with a wonderfully smart piano player who had a keyboard that could be programmed with different tempers.

He explained it to me and demonstrated as he went. It's a lot easier to grasp a bit of this when someone is actually letting you hear the difference.

--James

[falkbeer]

If one make the prototype right, every whistle produce in a factory should be in tune

I don't think this is physically possible. There is a ratio of good to bad
products in every factory, it's called yield, and it will never be 100%
There will always be minute variations on the line. And Clarke can't
afford to have every whistle hand tested for tuning and still charge
<$20 for a whistle.

Also, due to instrument physics, it is really tough to get both the upper
and lower octaves exactly the same without resorting to keys, as is
done on Clarinets and boehm flutes. In fact, man has created in-tune
instruments, they're called the clarinet and boehm flute. If you want a
whistle, you have to blow things into tune sometimes. If you want keys
that assure in-tunedness, you have to move up to a different
instrument entirely.

If Gibson or Martin can put the bands right every time on a guitar, it shouldn´t be that difficult for a whistle manufacturer to drill the holes in the right place!
But you are quite right that all whistle has some problems with intonation. The second octave is almost always a little flat (15 cents or so) if it has a straight bore. Conical whistles, as the Sweetone, are better in this respect.

And if Feadog can make it right, so could everyone else.

Good intonation is the most important aspect in an instrument. I´ve tried many whistles and I´m quite frankly fed up whit all the crap-whistles on the market that´s not in tune.