Fiberglass Whistles?

ctilbury · Post by **ctilbury** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:23 pm

Has anyone ever seen a fiberglass whistle? I am thinking of making a tapered whistle, similar to a Clark or a Shaw using that medium. I think I could make a really great instrument that way. Anyone have any thoughts on the matter?

TIA!

falkbeer · Post by **falkbeer** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:31 pm

Hi,

I´d personally would try carbon fibre instead!

Bretton · Post by **Bretton** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:32 pm

The Burke Composite whistles are the closest thing I've seen...

-brett

stevetcm · Post by **stevetcm** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:57 pm

Have to say Chuck I really admire your pioneering spirit and enthusiasm. I think this is a great idea. I made a lot of prototype whistles in my little workshop with some success, although not really in relation to the amount of effort I put in. I flirted with the conical tube idea, but didn't want to get into boring and reaming (or rolling and soldering for that matter). What I tried was pretty crude, stretching ABS tubing by weighting it at one end and warming with a heat gun. Needless to say this wasn't too successful, the tubes ended up wonky, but I could see the potential. With more controlled conditions a decent jig and the right tubing I reckon I could make it work.
What I like about the idea of forming rather than machining tubes is that you can do all the work on the pattern, add perturbations, undercut holes whatever, the other way round, the shape of the bore becomes the focus.
It does beg the question of how you get the tube off the pattern, presumably Michael Burke has solved this, maybe lost wax?
anyway I wish you luck
Steve

ctilbury · Post by **ctilbury** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:29 pm

Thank you very much, Steve.

I will prolly do the classic glass layup and vacuum bag thing. It should be fairly easy to make a blank from wood and go from there. The main advantage of doing it in a layed up composit is that I (think I) can mold the airway and fipple blade relationship with great accuracy and tweak from there. Also, I could make several in a batch and that is pretty important to me.

I have also looked at streching or pressing plastic tube into a conical shape, but without success. It would be far easier to make molds and hot-mold the plastic. Unfortunately, I dont have 100K dollars to invest in that. (How about a 3 piece styrene plastic Darth Vader Pennywhistle Kit that snaps together? Ya baby!)

If you want to try streching or forming a plastic tube, use heat lamps. They make a much more even mess of things than a torch or heat gun can. I also hear that hot cooking oil is about the right temp to make PVC soft enough to push around, though I have not tried it. <<grin>>

Daniel_Bingamon · Post by **Daniel_Bingamon** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:46 pm

You can also soak PVC in acetone and it'll form like a wet noodle.

brianormond · Post by **brianormond** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:23 pm

-If you can overcome or seal in the resin odor it might be OK, but fiberglass resin has a strong odor which persists. The other caution would be to finish the thing so finely a doofus player like moi doesn't inhale stray fibers when clearing the fipple from a clog. Many suck to clear
rather than blow. (having difficulty typing this with a straight face)

-I've heard (from an unqualified source) fiberglass has similar form at microscopic level to asbestos fiber- like tiny arrows with tinier barbs. These give asbestos its horrific irritant capacity and disease potential when lodged in alveolar tissue. The jury is still out as to whether
fiberglass particulates inhaled present a similar threat of lung disease. I realize plenty of people work with fiberglass routinely without apparent harm, but remember how long it took for asbestos harm to become widespread public knowledge-knowledge asbestos
companies had many decades before.

OK-end of rant!

ctilbury · Post by **ctilbury** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:32 pm

Man, you have a real point there. I would hate like hell to be responsible for someones illness. Better to leave the fiberglass alone, I guess.

brianormond · Post by **brianormond** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:23 am

Gosh-I'd hate to be responsible for your giving up on a promising production method on my say-so if its challenges could be addressed effectively.

-Google "fiberglass particles, hazards" for a wealth of sites of possible interest, some citing studies of Manhattan air quality on 9/11 when lots of fiberglass insulation went into the air from collapsing buildings. Some studies pretty much exonerate fiberglass and some vilify it, and arguments about methodology and particulate size and how they can prejudice a study abound. Its almost as confusing as debates about which flute oil to use.

Chiffed · Post by **Chiffed** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:13 am

brianormond wrote:Gosh-I'd hate to be responsible for your giving up on a promising production method on my say-so if its challenges could be addressed effectively.

-Google "fiberglass particles, hazards" for a wealth of sites of possible interest, some citing studies of Manhattan air quality on 9/11 when lots of fiberglass insulation went into the air from collapsing buildings. Some studies pretty much exonerate fiberglass and some vilify it, and arguments about methodology and particulate size and how they can prejudice a study abound. Its almost as confusing as debates about which flute oil to use.

I think these are corcerns that can be addressed right in the building process. If you use a plug and mold, marine gelcoat could be used to permanently seal the fibers inside. Also, there's no rule saying you have to use glass in the layup. Nylon, Amarid (Kevlar), and wood fiber all work. Ever driven a Trabant? Wood fiber and polyester body.
Also, there are some choices in resins. Polyester may not be the best choice.
How about acrylics? I've heard of people molding acrylics for small-scale production without the expensive gear.

ctilbury · Post by **ctilbury** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 1:23 pm

Chiffed wrote: .... If you use a plug and mold, marine gelcoat could be used to permanently seal the fibers inside. Also, there's no rule saying you have to use glass in the layup. Nylon, Amarid (Kevlar), and wood fiber all work. ....

All of that is quite true. Perhaps I was a little hasty to discard the whole idea. Do you know of a web site or a book that outlines the different processes and materials?

Chiffed · Post by **Chiffed** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:02 pm

WestSystem Epoxy has a great technical manual, available at chandleries. I've used slow-cure WestSystem with uncoated nylon (straight from Fanny's Fabrics) and it worked well. I was using a plug to make an automotive air-scoop, so I can't comment on how it would wor with tight tolerances.

Interlux has good technical specs for its gel-coats, which are acailable in small quantities.

For acrylics, I've molded jigs out of the stuff. If you can avoid bubbles, it's nice to work with and easy to machine after molding.

Sorry, no better references for these materials. Composites would be pretty by-guess-and-by-dog for close-tolerance small-scale work, but somebody might have more info on acrylics.

ctilbury · Post by **ctilbury** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:44 pm

I did a little looking into "food grade" composit materials. There are some epoxy and acrylic resins in the world that are supposed to be non toxic after they are cured. Most are considered toxic forever. There is still the problem with frayed glass (or whatever) fibers, but I think that can be taken care of with correct manufacturing procedures. Carbon fibers are toxic as heck. Even Kevlar or Nylon fibers are really bad. You could swallow hunks of these materials without harm, but inhaling the fibers appears (from what I was able to dig up) appears to be really unhealthy. IMHO, there are just to many problems that I do not really want to solve.

After giving this another look or two, vacuum forming using PVC, ABS, or even acrylic plastic looks pretty good. Good accuracy, no resins to stink up my shop, and lots of colors are available. I would need a nice, even heat source, such as infra-red heat lamps. And, of course, a vacuum table, molds, a pump, etc, etc.

I have also been toying with the idea of making a rolling jig. That looks fairly easy and inexpensive. I bet I could make a tapered brass whistle that would be excellent and beautiful!
I just got a couple of Shaws and original Clarks. The Clarks are rolled and the labium is pressed in with a pin after it is soldered. The Shaw looks like it was rolled, soldered, and then the fipple put in a press jig to give the labium and airway both their final shape. They both have a "rolling key" inside where the raw material fits into a slot in the roller. The body shape was probably cut and the holes punched in one step before it is rolled. I will prolly try rolling some brass shim stock that I have and see what I can do with that... <<grin>>

Chiffed · Post by **Chiffed** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:08 pm

Sounds like a plan. I like composites for a bunch of things, but vacuum molding plastics would be safer. Just think of the fun you could have making tapered mandrels

I'm also wondering how TaHei (sp?) Shakuhachi are made with their "cast bore". The material looks and feels like ABS, but it could be a 2-part resin.

Whatever you do, don't forget a good cartrige vapour mask. PVC fumes do a number on brain cells, I'm told.

A stupid thought occured: couldn't a tapered mandrel be dipped repeatedly in liquid acrylic, just like a candle?

ctilbury · Post by **ctilbury** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:50 pm

I think that the cast acrylic materials are pretty runny. I believe that wax works for dipping because it hardens quickly. You can make a 2-part paste that you could plaster on a blank. That seems to be how many molds are made, too.

It should be fairly easy to cast a tapered body using products from a place like Tap Plastics. They have a storefront near me, too. I was looking into that process for fipple plugs some time ago. Those casting materials are pretty durable, and machinable, too. The hardest part looks to be to make a mold positive.

In any case, I need to find out how to make a long taper on my lathe. The only way I can think of is to make small stepped diameter cuts. It will be hard to get a nice finish that way. To do casting, I would need to make 2 pieces, one for the outside diameter and one for the inside diameter. That could be difficult to get right. It should be OK to do it in wood or plastic, though. Thats a lot easier than doing it in steel. Also, the mold would need to be in 3 pieces, inside top and bottom, if the fipple labium is molded in.

It looks like it would cost about $150-$200 to get started. I doubt that vacuum forming would be less than $1000.