high end or just expensive?

[brewerpaul]

I keep reading about sending back for voicing to suit a particular requirement. Can somebody enlighten me. What is this voicing? Clearly holes can be made a bit bigger. Bits can be sanded off but to what end and how exactly. There's lots of info on tweaking which is pretty clear to me but voicing is different, more esoteric, a secret held only by the initiated???
Brian

Voicing is a bit esoteric, but not really a secret...
It refers to creating all of the dimensions of the sound producing part of the whistle: the height and width of the windway, the length and width of the "window", angle and sharpness of the ramp, bevel or chamfer at the exit of the fipple, etc. Each and every one of these affects the tone of the whistle and differences of a couple of thousandths of an inch can greatly change the sound, back pressure and volume of the whistle. For the maker, this can be very frustrating since sometimes a whistle that looks terrific simply sounds a bit off, and he/she has to figure out what is wrong and how to fix it. On the other hand, it can also be hugely exciting to play those first few notes and tunes on a new whistle, especially if that whistle really sings right from the start. A lot of try,adjust, try,adjust needs to take place.

[JessieK]

Tuaz and ayone else who lives in a faraway place that makes returning lemons prohibitive, don't get a Chieftain (among others)!

[blackhawk]

Tuaz and ayone else who lives in a faraway place that makes returning lemons prohibitive, don't get a Chieftain (among others)!

I forgot that one. I wasn't thinking of Chieftain as high end, but if we count that one, it makes 4 high enders I sent back for a refund.

[colomon]

Consistency. That's why the pricetag is there isn't it?

Not in the least. It's there because of perceived quality and desirability. This is usually pegged to the best examples of a brand, not the worst. And if you can easily send it back, this is exactly as it should be.

This is really visible in the world of bassoons. I have never heard anyone deny that when you get them from the factory, $5,000 Fox bassoons are much more consistent than $35,000 Heckel bassoons. It's not unusual to hear stories about Heckels which come from the factory almost unplayable. But where Foxes are consistently good, Heckels are sometimes great, and that alone is enough to justify their pricing in the eyes of those professionals who keep on buying them. (If I recall correctly, Heckel's return policy sucks, but the secondary market is such you usually don't get burned too badly if you get a dud.)

I know people (including me) cite the consistent playability of high-end whistles relatives to Generations. But that's mostly just an argument for dealing with people who have an irrational (:) ) love of Generations. Which, if you think about it, is obvious -- nobody out there claims all high-end whistles are made equal. Most of us think at least some of them suck. So why would buying a generic high-end be better than buying a Generation?

Personally, I won't be parted from my Water Weasels and O'Riordans. But I've tried whistles of each type that I didn't like. Actually, one of my WW Ds is a bit sharp of concert pitch -- but it was a free replacement for an earlier one that I'd broken, and it plays beautifullly, so rather than complain, I kept it for practicing, and still enjoy playing it.

PS Another thing to think about -- if these whistles Custy's have are very desirable, the most likely reason they'd have five in stock would be because they were duds nobody wanted....

[glauber]

Actually, one of my WW Ds is a bit sharp of concert pitch

Mine is sharp if pushed all the way in, but i confirmed with Glen that it's on purpose, to make it more tuneable. Mine is in tune when the head is pulled out about 2 mm.

[colomon]

Actually, one of my WW Ds is a bit sharp of concert pitch

Mine is sharp if pushed all the way in, but i confirmed with Glen that it's on purpose, to make it more tuneable. Mine is in tune when the head is pulled out about 2 mm.

Of course. But this particular whistle is in tune when pulled out 10 mm or so, and Glenn's whistles are kind of dodgy when pulled that far out -- they no longer feel like they are securely together. It was bad enough that I went and bought a second WW D for use in sessions.

[glauber]

Actually, one of my WW Ds is a bit sharp of concert pitch

Mine is sharp if pushed all the way in, but i confirmed with Glen that it's on purpose, to make it more tuneable. Mine is in tune when the head is pulled out about 2 mm.

Of course. But this particular whistle is in tune when pulled out 10 mm or so, and Glenn's whistles are kind of dodgy when pulled that far out -- they no longer feel like they are securely together. It was bad enough that I went and bought a second WW D for use in sessions.

Yes, that's way too much "tuneability"!

[DCrom]

Tuaz and ayone else who lives in a faraway place that makes returning lemons prohibitive, don't get a Chieftain (among others)!

I forgot that one. I wasn't thinking of Chieftain as high end, but if we count that one, it makes 4 high enders I sent back for a refund.

I've been lucky - I've had a number of duds (including the first Walton's D I picked up in Ireland - if I hadn't picked up a couple of good Feadogs at the same time I might have given up on whistles) but they've all been cheapies. Tweaking them does help, but only goes so far (the Walton's went from "unplayable" to "so-so").

But I've been pretty lucky on the higher end - though I own a few mid-priced whistles that I really didn't like much at first, neither was defective, and I kept them. In both cases I got to like them more as I spent more time with them; one is now among my favorites. But out of the box I was pretty close to sending them back.

The common thread here was that in both cases I hadn't really thought through what I wanted, and expected, from the new whistle. And because both needed radically different playing styles from the other whistles I owned, it took me a while to adjust.

I like Generations. I like Jerry-tweaked Generations even more, but I can do a pretty decent tweaking job myself (wish my playing skills were as good as my tweaking skills!). If the only whistles available were Generations, I'd still be playing. But although I have several good Generations, about the only time I play them is when my other whistles aren't available. Because I think my favorite whistles play better - not because they're more expensive, but because I like the tone, the stability, the better tuning.

I don't think you need to spend a lot of money to get a good whistle (my current favorite cost $25), but your chances of getting a *great* whistle probably go up with the money spent. But you'll have to decide for yourself if it's worth it to you. Last fall, I had a chance to play a blackwood Abell Bb side by side with my self-tweaked Generation Bb. There was no doubt at all that the Abell sounded better, or that it was a thing of beauty. But you know what? That Generation sounded pretty good, too - I asked Tony Higgins to play the same tune on both, and I'd have given a great deal to sound as good as he did on the Generation.

And personal taste plays a role - though they all cost about the same, I like Generations a lot more than standard-bore Walton's. I like Sweetone D whistles reasonably well, but I know there are folks on the board who really don't like their sound. Among the more expensive whistles, I was less than impressed with the Copelands I tried, but really liked the Burkes and Busmans. I really like Serpents and Syns - I know there are some here that don't like either. And there are probably equally strongly-held opinions on every whistle out there.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that Peter is right - for him. He likes the sound and play characteristics of Generations, and doesn't see a sufficient improvement in the characterstics he values to make it worthwhile to pay more (and still deal with individual variability). But although he's a very experienced player (certainly far more so than I!) it doesn't mean that he's necessarily right for everyone else - once you get past basic playability and tuning issues, it all boils down to taste.

[Bloomfield]

I know people (including me) cite the consistent playability of high-end whistles relatives to Generations. But that's mostly just an argument for dealing with people who have an irrational (:) ) love of Generations. Which, if you think about it, is obvious -- nobody out there claims all high-end whistles are made equal. Most of us think at least some of them suck. So why would buying a generic high-end be better than buying a Generation?

I think you're off here. About "nobody" claiming that all high-end whistles are good, there is a strong assumption here at c&f that high-end whistles are better, and even that they can improve your playing. You see all these "I can play Row, Row, Row Your Boat without hitch now, I think I am ready for a high-quality whistle. Should I get Burke or Abell or Bleazy, or maybe a Copeland?" posts, which are always met by a flurry of people recommending whatever whistle they own. There aren't that many people around who've played enough whistles to make meaningful comparisons. Paired with that you find subtle or not so subtle marginalization of those who profess to prefering cheap whistles. They are put down as silly traditionalists, who are so blinded by devotion to odd characters like Micho Russel that they don't know what's good for them. You call them irrational yourself (with a smiley, I know), but it makes you wonder, what is more rational? Playing a $8 whistle or playing a $90 or $300 whistle that plays only marginally better than the $8 whistle and is less responsive...

There certainly is not an implicit sense on the chiffboard that high-end whistles have the same quality control issues as cheapos. The mantra is: Generation *can* be good, but there are so many lemons... On the other hand people are very shy about talking about hi-end lemons, and will often prefer not mention names. I personally know a few whistlers who've had very bad lemon experiences with Copelands but won't post about them, or only in a veiled way. Burkes went through a notorious phase of poor quality control (notorious that is, if you kept your ear to the ground and read between the lines on the chiffboard).

Of course there are great stories about customer service out there as well, I don't want to be dissing anybody. From my experience (and I don't go in for wooden whistles---except perhaps a Grinter), the only truly consistent hi-end maker is Colin Goldie who makes Overtons. I've never seen or heard tell of a Colin Goldie lemon (I've own Bernard Overton lemons), and I know from experience that Colin will fix or exchange his whistles. Sindts are quite consistent, but there are some inferior ones out there. What it means in practice, what I play is Generations, Sindts (my modified ones), and Overtons.

[JessieK]

There aren't that many people around who've played enough whistles to make meaningful comparisons.

Yes, but there are SOME. But some of us disagree on preferred sound, anyway.

In my experience, Sindts are the most consistent whistles. In fact, I have never encountered difference among them.

[brewerpaul]

There aren't that many people around who've
In my experience, Sindts are the most consistent whistles. In fact, I have never encountered difference among them.

If you saw how John makes them, you'd understand why. He uses very high precision machinery with digital readouts accurate to ten-thousandths of an inch. Talk about reproducibility... John is one heck of a machinist.

[colomon]

I think you're off here. About "nobody" claiming that all high-end whistles are good, there is a strong assumption here at c&f that high-end whistles are better, and even that they can improve your playing.

What I was trying to get at is this is confusing the generic with the specific. When we say "high end whistles are great", we're thinking of our favorite high end whistles. The statement implicitly leaves out all those high end whistles we don't like, or even think are complete crap. As I said, I don't think there's anyone out there who seriously thinks that all whistles that cost more than $50 ($100, $300, whatever) are uniformly great. We just fall into the habit of talking that way without really thinking about what we are saying.

Paired with that you find subtle or not so subtle marginalization of those who profess to prefering cheap whistles. They are put down as silly traditionalists, who are so blinded by devotion to odd characters like Micho Russel that they don't know what's good for them. You call them irrational yourself (with a smiley, I know), but it makes you wonder, what is more rational? Playing a $8 whistle or playing a $90 or $300 whistle that plays only marginally better than the $8 whistle and is less responsive...

I dunno, speaking as someone who does play a high end instrument, what catches my attention more often is the attitude that if you play anything more expensive than $10, you're not a real whistler (whatever that means). I think there is a very really "my whistle is cheaper than yours" reverse snobbishness that goes on around here. Peter's first post on this topic was a prime example -- "if the high end whistle isn't more consistent, what is the point?" implicitly implies there is nothing else about any high end whistle that might lead one to want to play one. As if every high end player would just switch to Generations if someone handed him the right Generation.

[Bloomfield]

I dunno, speaking as someone who does play a high end instrument, what catches my attention more often is the attitude that if you play anything more expensive than $10, you're not a real whistler (whatever that means). I think there is a very really "my whistle is cheaper than yours" reverse snobbishness that goes on around here. Peter's first post on this topic was a prime example -- "if the high end whistle isn't more consistent, what is the point?" implicitly implies there is nothing else about any high end whistle that might lead one to want to play one. As if every high end player would just switch to Generations if someone handed him the right Generation.

As if every Generation player wouldn't switch if you handed him a high-end whistle that was actually better.

And there Peter was, trying them out (and he's tried out many others).

I don't know where to place myself because I love my Generations, Overtons, and Sindts, but I am slut for trying new whistles (don't let me near your collection... hehe). I haven't found anything (save perhaps the Grinter) that I'd like to play better than a Generation (or Feadog, Oak, Clare, Acorn... depending) or an Overton.

But that reverse snobbishness about people who play expensive whistles I've only ever heard about from those who complain about being victims of it, not from those who would actually make statements like that ("my whistle is cheaper than yours").

With two caveats: I am talking about high-end and not about loud, here. There is murmuring about loud whistles amoung session players, just as there is against loud tenor banjos and guitars. Also, if you show up with a $300 whistle at the session and you can't get the Rakes of Mallow out, there is something ludicrous about it, like someone who owns a $100,000 Porsche but can't drive. But then again, I've never seen that sort of sentiment about anyone showing up with a Burke or Sindt or Silkstone.

[NicoMoreno]

As if every high end player would just switch to Generations if someone handed him the right Generation

Why not?

If it is "right", why wouldn't they switch?

Looks? Smell? I honestly don't get it. If it isn't the "sound" (tone, timbre, response, etc) that is being sought after, what is?

[colomon]

As if every high end player would just switch to Generations if someone handed him the right Generation

If it is "right", why wouldn't they switch?

Looks? Smell? I honestly don't get it. If it isn't the "sound" (tone, timbre, response, etc) that is being sought after, what is?

Let me try to be clear about this. For my tastes, a Generation cannot be right, at least over the O'Riordans and Water Weasels I like. It has neither the sound, nor the feel, nor the responsiveness, nor volume that I'm looking for in a whistle. Period.

I have a nice O'Briain improved Generation D. It's perfectly playable. It's useful for situations while low volume and fast response is a good thing. But if it's sitting here on my desk (which it usually is), I'm not going to choose to play it all that often, and I've never even considered taking it out at a pub session.

This isn't meant to reflect badly on players of Generations. More power to them. But there's more than one possible whistle sound and style, and a lot of us don't like that particular one very well.

(I'm not saying that there could not be a whistle labelled "Generation" that I would play -- just that the any reasonable variation on the current design is not going to make me happy. Presumably some hypothetical Generation that I like would not make Peter happy, either.)