high end or just expensive?

[Cayden]

I was just trying a 70 euro D whistle at Custy's from a maker praised here often ['he's he's always willing to take a whistle back and revoice it or replace if it doesn't work out']. It was one with an aluninium body, brass tuning slide and a plastic top. Out of the five I tried four had a terrible croak on the high B, the problem that usually makes me discard a whistle. Tuning was wobbly in some too. They were basically useless to me. It is the problem that sets the bad generation whistles apart from the good ones. But in a 70 euro whistle surely you would expect the problem to be non existant wouldn't you?
I'd feel deeply ripped off receiving something like that out of the mail order catalogue. Any thoughts or experiences?

[blackhawk]

I'd feel deeply ripped off receiving something like that out of the mail order catalogue. Any thoughts or experiences?

I own whistles made by most of the "top" makers who are well thought of here on C&F, and of those there were 2 soprano Ds and a C (three different makers) that I just sent right back to the maker. One of those was the most expensive whistle I've ever bought and it was the worst I've played except for some cheapies like Doolin. The maker offered to revoice it, but I was so disgusted I just wanted my money back. You don't necessarily get what you pay for with high end whistles.

[Cayden]

I know I kicked up a bit of dust about high priced whsitles when first I came to this place. I still have misgivings about paying a lot for a whistle. I don't mind putting down the money if someone sits down in a workshop works at making an instrument and produces something that is working well.
Cheap whistles have problems although when handpicked from a batch, they do me just fine most of the time. If you mass produce a whistle and ask a price more than fifteen times that of the ones it shares the jar on Custy's counter with, you better be sure you make one that does the job better than the 4 euro one. Your man obviously wasn't bothered.

[Jon-M]

I too have found high end whistles to be an expensive crap shoot. Some are fine, but others . . . ! The most expensive whistle I ever bought was tuned so flat that even with the tuning slide all the way in, it still was unplayable in an ensemble setting. I sent it back and that problem was fixed, but now that the low notes were in tune, it became apparent that it was sharp from the high A up. I sent it back for fixing but it came back still unplayable, so I gave up and got a refund. What I couldn't understand and still can't was how anyone with a rudimentary claim to workmanship could let such a lemon at such a price out of their shop to begin with.

[peeplj]

I have a couple of thoughts.

Not naming the maker is probably a good thing on a post like this, but it does have one drawback: you can't hear feedback or thoughts from the maker(s)' other customers.

Some players value certain qualities of an instrument over others. Many folks don't like Oak whistles, to name a common inexpensive whistle, but I have several and have found all of them to be very good players and very consistent from whistle to whistle.

My personal experience is that most whistles, regardless of price, can be played reasonably well if you are willing to learn the peculiarities / personality of the whistle and then fit your style of playing around the whistle's capabilities.

Note that I said "most," not all. I have encountered several Gens and a Feadog that were not good at all. I also have some Gens and a Feadog that are all wonderful, each in their own way.

--James

[waitingame]

'he's he's always willing to take a whistle back and revoice it or replace if it doesn't work out'

Ah, but try sending a generation back - not that I have, of course.

I guess it's horses for courses. I haven't come across a high end maker who won't either replace or refund as appropriate and that's how it should be.

I've several high end whistles at the moment (I'm loathe to call them expensive because, to my mind they represent excellent value for money). My Thin Weasel, Overton, Harper and Burkes for example are in a different league to any cheap whistle I've ever played for ME. But then I don't limit myself to just IrTrad or even folk music so perhaps my demands are different.

As in every other walk of life you pays your money and takes your chance (and choice).

[blackhawk]

you better be sure you make one that does the job better than the 4 euro one. Your man obviously wasn't bothered.

True, and that's so hard to fathom, since that's what they do for a living. If I ran my water treatment plant the way they do their business, there'd be cholera epidemics here constantly.

I think the most frustrating thing about it was realizing my Gen D actually sounded better than those high enders.

[Wombat]

Some expensive whistles are noted for their consistency; some aren't. I think with any make of whistle that actually has good products, expensive or cheap, there will be some that are better than others. I think the most one can ask of an expensive whistle is that a high proportion be really exciting whistles and that all be in tune and lacking in unpleasant raspiness or noticeable uneveness of tone or volume across the range. If the chances of picking up a really good whistle are high and the chance of getting a seriously bad dud are non-existent then one has no cause for complaint. I think that several makes come very close to this standard.

Of those that don't have a reputation for consistency, some produce the occasional great whistle but many also that have serious problems. I think this is indefensible in expensive whistles. That said, if you own a great whistle from one of these makers you would not wish to part with it.

[Cayden]

'he's he's always willing to take a whistle back and revoice it or replace if it doesn't work out'

Ah, but try sending a generation back - not that I have, of course.


I've several high end whistles at the moment (I'm loathe to call them expensive because, to my mind they represent excellent value for money).

I did consiously use expensive to describe the whistle. And for what it's worth, the make is not really important here. You can figure it out but it's not really the isssue. The whistle I was speaking of was every inch as mass produced as the cheap whistles, it had a plastic head and metal tube, it had a brass tuning slide. Would that warrant a more than fifteen fold price increase? Well, just maybe if it was a good whistle but I these expensive whistles had serious issues re tuning and tonal quality in some notes, far more serious than I have encountered on any Generation I ever bought. And just to be clear, this was not a matter of peculiarities like James suggested, this was plain croaky in four out of five.

The argument that Generation won't take back a whistle doesn't really go as they charge you 4 euro and you do take your chances without expecting a lot of aftercare included in the price. If you buy a 70 euro one, you expect something that doesn't have to go back to the maker before it is at least acceptable.

Again, I don't mind paying that amount of money for a whistle, but I would expect a product worth the sum I put on the table. A few years ago I bought a Sindt and that's well made I don't feel overcharged, there's another whistle in the post from the same price-range made to order, I hope to have that on monday or tuesday. But 70 for a production-line instrument that is as croaky as a bad cheapie, that's just not on.

[waitingame]

The one I was speaking of was every inch as mass produced as the cheap whistles, it had a plastic head and metal tube, it had a brass tuning slide. Would that warrant a more than fifteen fold price increase? The argument that Generation won't take back a whistle doesn't really go as they charge you 4 euro and you do take your chances, if you buy a 70 euro one, you expect something that doesn't have to go back to the maker before it is at least acceptable.

But 70 for a production-line instrument that is as croaky as a bad cheapie, that's extortion.

I guess most of us have identified the maker in question (or at least think we have) and I have to say I have one of his whistles in A that is absolutely my best A (okay, I've only got one other, but it's still a good whistle) albeit a different model from those you're talking about.

My point about the Generation was if you have to buy say 20 in order to find 1 good one then it's actually an 80 Euro whistle and not a 4 Euro whistle. You just happen to have 19 bits of unused metal lying around.

Of course, in general I'd agree that the greater the price the more you have a right to expect. Surely the moral of the story is to pick your manufacturer well?

[blackhawk]

My point about the Generation was if you have to buy say 20 in order to find 1 good one then it's actually an 80 Euro whistle and not a 4 Euro whistle. You just happen to have 19 bits of unused metal lying around.

I've bought more than 20 Gen Ds over the last 2 years and they were all good after being minimally tweaked (just the sticky tack). I think that's what makes it so hard to stomach a high ender that sounds terrible.

[Cayden]

My point about the Generation was if you have to buy say 20 in order to find 1 good one then it's actually an 80 Euro whistle and not a 4 Euro whistle. You just happen to have 19 bits of unused metal lying around.

Of course, in general I'd agree that the greater the price the more you have a right to expect. Surely the moral of the story is to pick your manufacturer well?

I never encountered a failure rate like that, maybe because I try my whistles before buying. Unfortunately, from the occasional expensive whistle I get to try, it seems that handpicking is every inch as necessary when the price goes up while you would really expect the failure rate to go down. I find it highly irritating to get a whistle that has it's high notes out of balance and/or has a buzz, a croak, rasp or other distortion in the high notes. What the point of having expensive whistles if their makers can't solve those problems consistently?

[Wanderer]

I've bought more than 20 Gen Ds over the last 2 years and they were all good after being minimally tweaked (just the sticky tack). I think that's what makes it so hard to stomach a high ender that sounds terrible.

On the other hand, I bought a box of 10 brass D's once, and only one of them could be blown into tune, no matter what kinds of pulmonary gymnastics I did. The rest were out of tune by as much as 35 cents on some notes, but not consistently across the whistle, so it would actually require taping/rasping/changing the holes to make them right. So that box had a 90% failure rate. Fact of the matter is, more Generations suck than don't in my experience.

It was when someone tried to use "just temperament" as a possible excuse for this brand of whistle to be so badly out of tune that I realized that there was just no rational discussion to be had with certain Generation apologists. :roll: I realize that there's no 'convincing' the established folks like Peter and others...the only reason I post today is because it's been a while, and new folks really do deserve a complete picture of the expensive/cheapie debate. I don't think Peter does a really good job of giving that to them.

I never encountered a failure rate like that, maybe because I try my whistles before buying. Unfortunately, from the occasional expensive whistle I get to try, it seems that handpicking is every inch as necessary when the price goes up while you would really expect the failure rate to go down. I find it highly irritating to get a whistle that has it's high notes out of balance and/or has a buzz, a croak, rasp or other distortion in the high notes. What the point of having expensive whistles if their makers can't solve those problems consistently?

Several points here, and I'll work them backwards.

You imply that high end whistles have the same failure rate as Generations...but in my experience, that's just wrong. I've never heard of a high end maker with anything close to that of Generations...at least not one that was in business for very long. People will put up with getting crap whistles for $4.00..they usually won't for one that's $50.00.

When you get a sucky generation, well..you're stuck with it. With a high-ender, you can try to send it back and see if the maker can fix it. Sometimes, you have to realize that the problem may be that you just don't like how that kind of whistle sounds or plays.

And yes, you're lucky you can try them before you buy them. Not everyone has that luxury. And there's an important part of this that most folks seem to miss. If you're gettin the "good ones", who's getting the sucky ones? Maybe someone who can't try it (they're ordering by mail, or store policy). Most stores around here won't let you get your saliva on their lot of $4.00 instruments so you can find the one that suits you.

Lastly, you're so used to your Generations, I'm not surprised that you dont' find any high-enders you like. The one high-ender you mention you do like has often been described as a "high end generation" in terms of sound. It took me a long time to train myself to like anything other than a Sweetone. It was what I was used to..and I just couldn't play any other brand worth a darn. They squeaked, or the high end was too hard, or something..because they weren't what I was used to. James is right on this score...you have to learn your individual whistle. Each has it's own individual characteristics.

[Cayden]

I do like a particular sound and playing characteristics. There are plenty of whistles I don't like for their playing characteristics or their particular sound, that is not at issue here.
I also think I can just about manage to get a decent sound out of a different type of whistle and I can recognise when a whistle is at fault.

I'd be the first one to say it's not a good idea to buy a whistle untried, in fact I have been saying that for a while on this forum. You get too many with problems [although I don't think all makers turn out a high percentage of flawed intruments].
The issue IS that that shouldn't be the case with expensive whistles as you expect the maker to put in the time to come up with a better design/production process and that he/she has a system in place that checks the whistles before they are let loose on the world. Consistency. That's why the pricetag is there isn't it?

[PhilO]

Expensive regarding many things is often equatable with better quality and just as often not; sometimes the extra geeters go to advertising and the psychology of making you think you must be getting something better. I find that to be more true with dining than with whistles for example. My favorite restaurants are generally neighborhood joints and I can't stand people folding my napkin every time I get up. Most of us have interests that stimulate the spending gene; whatever I save by avoiding fancy restaurants, goes to whistles; others' joy may be in eating at fancy restaurants. Whatever rotates your sprinklers...

With whistles, I find it rare that a cheapie standard whistle of any make is unplayable or annoyingly close; but then, I'm not a professional musician, just someone who loves music, especially this music, and especially the fullfillment and joy of learning a little more each day about playing this music on a whistle. I have many Clarkes, Gens, Waltons, Feadogs, etc. and can go from one to the other without much problem.

I like high enders because I collect things I love, admire the craftsmanship, and because I can lean in a bit more and get some better tonal qualities. Frankly though after years of fun collecting, playing, experimenting, I find that I would only at this point need Copeland, O'Riordan and Burke, in addition to my treasured cheapies, to be fully contented. Others will no doubt have other makers that make them look no further.

I am glad that we have the likes of Bill Ochs, Grey Larsen, and Peter et al to help us newbie (yes, 10 years is still newbie) amateurs maintain perspective...



PhilO