OK, maybe I am opening up a can of worms, but an ON TOPIC can of worms.
When you are evaluating a whistle, what are the catagories ( ie: backpressure, in tune) that you observe and what is your definition of said catagories?
Thanks
Whistle evaluation catagories and their definitions
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IDAwHOa
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Whistle evaluation catagories and their definitions
Steven - IDAwHOa - Wood Rocks
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BillChin
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I'll shoot from the hip:
Objective
* in tune, use a tuner program or electronic tuner to check. Less important if a whistle is tunable, but still worth a quick check.
http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~tuner/tuner_e.html
http://ashleys.net/music/notefreq.htm
* air requirement - how much air does it take to get the upper register notes? How stable are those notes?
* sensitivity - how easy is it to stay in the low register. This is more important with low whistles because it is easy to stray into the upper register, especially after playing another whistle that needs lots of air.
* Volume, how loud is the whistle? Some people prefer loud to play with other musicians, some need quiet to practice in close proximity to neighbors or family.
Subjective
* sound quality, how does it sound? Is it pleasing or it is Hrringing. Subjective, but vital.
* Bell note and C, play the lowest note (cover all six holes) and see how it sounds. Then play both the oxxooo and empty C and see how they sound.
* tactile response, how does it feel? Maybe just as important as sound quality, again subjective.
* eye candy, how does it look? Probably the least important to me, but probably an issue for some musicians. Most people want to look cool.
One term I don't have a good handle on is "chiff." My understanding is that it has to do with vibrancy of tone, and probably can be included in sound quality. I could also use clarification of the term backpressure and how that differs from air requirement. Examples of popular whistles brands at opposite ends of the spectrum for chiff and backpressure would be most appreciated and educational.
+ Bill
Objective
* in tune, use a tuner program or electronic tuner to check. Less important if a whistle is tunable, but still worth a quick check.
http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~tuner/tuner_e.html
http://ashleys.net/music/notefreq.htm
* air requirement - how much air does it take to get the upper register notes? How stable are those notes?
* sensitivity - how easy is it to stay in the low register. This is more important with low whistles because it is easy to stray into the upper register, especially after playing another whistle that needs lots of air.
* Volume, how loud is the whistle? Some people prefer loud to play with other musicians, some need quiet to practice in close proximity to neighbors or family.
Subjective
* sound quality, how does it sound? Is it pleasing or it is Hrringing. Subjective, but vital.
* Bell note and C, play the lowest note (cover all six holes) and see how it sounds. Then play both the oxxooo and empty C and see how they sound.
* tactile response, how does it feel? Maybe just as important as sound quality, again subjective.
* eye candy, how does it look? Probably the least important to me, but probably an issue for some musicians. Most people want to look cool.
One term I don't have a good handle on is "chiff." My understanding is that it has to do with vibrancy of tone, and probably can be included in sound quality. I could also use clarification of the term backpressure and how that differs from air requirement. Examples of popular whistles brands at opposite ends of the spectrum for chiff and backpressure would be most appreciated and educational.
+ Bill
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peeplj
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Here are terms I have used in whistle reviews, and what I mean by them:
"Chiff" refers to the little popping sound present on some whistles when changing from note to note or when starting a note.
"Pure" in sound refers to having very little nonmusical sound in the tone of the whistle. Contrast "breathy" and "ring"
"Breathy" refers to having a sound that contains some audible nonmusical sounds, including air noise.
"Ring" in the sound refers to a level of resonance that causes the sound to seem to hang in the air after the tone stops; a bell-like quality of sound.
"Bell note" refers to the note made when all fingers are down; the (fingered) note D on a whistle, which may or may not be a concert D depending on the whistle key.
"Responsiveness" refers to have fast the whistle can be played while the sound remains clean and clear.
"Resistance" refers to the amount of air necessary to sound the whistle; higher resistance means lower air.
"Backpressure" refers to the amount of air pressure necessary to sound the whistle; higher backpressure means you must blow with more force.
"Overtones" refer to the quality of sound in which the higher notes of the harmonic series are present along with the fundamental note.
"Projection" is how well the whistle carries at a distance from the player; contrast with "volume."
"Volume" is how loud the whistle is irregardless of your distance from the player, relative to other instruments or some other standard of measure.
"Intonation" can have two meanings. The first is how well a whistle is in tune with itself (its intervals); the second is how well it is in tune with other instruments or to an arbitrary standard such as a tuner.
"Balance" usually is in relation to octaves and refers to how well a whistle keeps the same level of volume when moving from one register (octave) to another. An example of poor balance would be a whistle in which the upper octave is drastically louder than the lower.
"Timbre" refers to the sum of a whistle's sound, or its voice.
"Voicing" can mean two things. One is whether all the notes up and down the whistle speak with the same voice or timbre; the other is the amount of resistance and backpressure has due to its windway design.
--James
"Chiff" refers to the little popping sound present on some whistles when changing from note to note or when starting a note.
"Pure" in sound refers to having very little nonmusical sound in the tone of the whistle. Contrast "breathy" and "ring"
"Breathy" refers to having a sound that contains some audible nonmusical sounds, including air noise.
"Ring" in the sound refers to a level of resonance that causes the sound to seem to hang in the air after the tone stops; a bell-like quality of sound.
"Bell note" refers to the note made when all fingers are down; the (fingered) note D on a whistle, which may or may not be a concert D depending on the whistle key.
"Responsiveness" refers to have fast the whistle can be played while the sound remains clean and clear.
"Resistance" refers to the amount of air necessary to sound the whistle; higher resistance means lower air.
"Backpressure" refers to the amount of air pressure necessary to sound the whistle; higher backpressure means you must blow with more force.
"Overtones" refer to the quality of sound in which the higher notes of the harmonic series are present along with the fundamental note.
"Projection" is how well the whistle carries at a distance from the player; contrast with "volume."
"Volume" is how loud the whistle is irregardless of your distance from the player, relative to other instruments or some other standard of measure.
"Intonation" can have two meanings. The first is how well a whistle is in tune with itself (its intervals); the second is how well it is in tune with other instruments or to an arbitrary standard such as a tuner.
"Balance" usually is in relation to octaves and refers to how well a whistle keeps the same level of volume when moving from one register (octave) to another. An example of poor balance would be a whistle in which the upper octave is drastically louder than the lower.
"Timbre" refers to the sum of a whistle's sound, or its voice.
"Voicing" can mean two things. One is whether all the notes up and down the whistle speak with the same voice or timbre; the other is the amount of resistance and backpressure has due to its windway design.
--James
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Redwolf
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When I think of "back pressure," I think of an ever-so-subtle resistance to air flow...not so as to sound strangled, but so as to require just a bit of "push." Most cheapies don't seem to have a lot of back pressure, and some of my more moderate/high end whistles seem to have even less...for example, with a Hoover Whitecap you don't so much blow as breathe gently into it. On the other end, my Busman requires me to support the tone a bit with my lips and air flow (something I'm finding I like, as it allows for greater flexibility).
When I think of air requirement, I don't only think of how much push it requires to get a second octave, but rather how often I have to take a breath to keep the tone supported when playing. If I have to breathe several times during a fairly short phrase to sustain a good tone (or to keep from gasping), I'd say that a whistle has high breath requirements...If I can go for quite a few measures without absolutely having to take a breath, I'd say the overall air requirements are low. Because of my asthma, all of my whistles have fairly low air requirements...if they didn't I'd have a hard time playing them!
I think chiff is technically defined as a non-musical sound on the attack of the note...the word comes originally from the world of pipe organs. I often seem to hear it used to describe a whistle with a more complex sound than the "purer" whistles, however.
Redwolf
When I think of air requirement, I don't only think of how much push it requires to get a second octave, but rather how often I have to take a breath to keep the tone supported when playing. If I have to breathe several times during a fairly short phrase to sustain a good tone (or to keep from gasping), I'd say that a whistle has high breath requirements...If I can go for quite a few measures without absolutely having to take a breath, I'd say the overall air requirements are low. Because of my asthma, all of my whistles have fairly low air requirements...if they didn't I'd have a hard time playing them!
I think chiff is technically defined as a non-musical sound on the attack of the note...the word comes originally from the world of pipe organs. I often seem to hear it used to describe a whistle with a more complex sound than the "purer" whistles, however.
Redwolf
...agus déanfaidh mé do mholadh ar an gcruit a Dhia, a Dhia liom!
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PhilO
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If chiff is truly agreed to be that little "popping" when you finger the toneholes crisply, well then, I really like "chiff." I don't like a lot of air throughout the sound. I do like what Jessie often refers to as a "focused" sound, as well as a rich and resonant tone (Copeland). Sometimes I'm not sure whether "focused" is as evidenced by "responsiveness" or is the same in that we're talking about the immediacy and forceful direction of one complete tone.
It really is harder for me to talk about these things than to recognize them when I'm playing and/or listening to playing. I know it (focus, responsiveness, resonance, richness, fullness, etc.) when I hear it and/or feel it. I usually start out by saying "I like this" or "This feels great." Often, I stop analyzing right there, because I can't stop playing.
It is good I suppose to get some common understanding of these descriptive terms (or at least how certain of us with the same tastes refer to the qualities of playability and tonality) for purposes of buying, selling trading whistles we're interested in.
Best,
PhilO
It really is harder for me to talk about these things than to recognize them when I'm playing and/or listening to playing. I know it (focus, responsiveness, resonance, richness, fullness, etc.) when I hear it and/or feel it. I usually start out by saying "I like this" or "This feels great." Often, I stop analyzing right there, because I can't stop playing.
It is good I suppose to get some common understanding of these descriptive terms (or at least how certain of us with the same tastes refer to the qualities of playability and tonality) for purposes of buying, selling trading whistles we're interested in.
Best,
PhilO
"This is this; this ain't something else. This is this." - Robert DeNiro, "The Deer Hunter," 1978.
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Jerry Freeman
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I think it would be most useful if we define chiff as that appealing "pop and gurgle" that's characteristic of some whistles, especially Generations.
The main other sound that someone might call chiff would be non-musical air noises, which I prefer to eliminate as completely as possible in every whistle. I would prefer not to call such air noises "chiff" because they are undesirable, IMO, and the pop and gurgle are definitely desirable for a certain kind of traditional sound. Since they are clearly two different things, and since one is desireable and the other undesirable, it would help if we had a different word for each.
This raises another distinction, in sounds we might call "breathiness." There can be a desirable breathiness for some purposes, a certain airy, ethereal sound that's part of the actual voice of the instrument, but one might also call the aforementioned non-musical air sounds "breathiness." These are also two different things, again one desirable at times, the other undesirable, and it would be useful if we could find words to use that distinguish them.
"Pure" can also mean a couple of different things. On the one hand, it can be used to mean there's little or no non-musical sound (chiff or air noise), regardless of the timbre. Or, on the other hand, it can refer to the timbre itself and mean that the sound is less complex (which, logically, should correspond to fewer overtones). The opposite of "pure" in this sense might be "reedy," "woody," "complex," etc. The opposite of "pure" in the first sense would be "chiffy" and/or "breathy," but as I said, both those words are unfocused and need to be tweaked.
Best wishes,
Jerry
The main other sound that someone might call chiff would be non-musical air noises, which I prefer to eliminate as completely as possible in every whistle. I would prefer not to call such air noises "chiff" because they are undesirable, IMO, and the pop and gurgle are definitely desirable for a certain kind of traditional sound. Since they are clearly two different things, and since one is desireable and the other undesirable, it would help if we had a different word for each.
This raises another distinction, in sounds we might call "breathiness." There can be a desirable breathiness for some purposes, a certain airy, ethereal sound that's part of the actual voice of the instrument, but one might also call the aforementioned non-musical air sounds "breathiness." These are also two different things, again one desirable at times, the other undesirable, and it would be useful if we could find words to use that distinguish them.
"Pure" can also mean a couple of different things. On the one hand, it can be used to mean there's little or no non-musical sound (chiff or air noise), regardless of the timbre. Or, on the other hand, it can refer to the timbre itself and mean that the sound is less complex (which, logically, should correspond to fewer overtones). The opposite of "pure" in this sense might be "reedy," "woody," "complex," etc. The opposite of "pure" in the first sense would be "chiffy" and/or "breathy," but as I said, both those words are unfocused and need to be tweaked.
Best wishes,
Jerry
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peeplj
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Good points by all.
I don't get the "gurgle" thing in Jerry's definition of chiff, though.
I've had some whistles that would gurgle--in particular, my Waltons Guinness before I overtweaked it into a whole different kind of whistle--and some recorders have a gurgle if you push the low D too hard. In neither case, though, could a gurgle be thought of as a good thing.
I have a hunch I'm hearing "gurgle" and thinking of something entirely different then you were thinking of when you wrote it.
--James
I don't get the "gurgle" thing in Jerry's definition of chiff, though.
I've had some whistles that would gurgle--in particular, my Waltons Guinness before I overtweaked it into a whole different kind of whistle--and some recorders have a gurgle if you push the low D too hard. In neither case, though, could a gurgle be thought of as a good thing.
I have a hunch I'm hearing "gurgle" and thinking of something entirely different then you were thinking of when you wrote it.
--James
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StewySmoot
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Jerry Freeman
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Hi, James.peeplj wrote:Good points by all.
I don't get the "gurgle" thing in Jerry's definition of chiff, though.
I've had some whistles that would gurgle--in particular, my Waltons Guinness before I overtweaked it into a whole different kind of whistle--and some recorders have a gurgle if you push the low D too hard. In neither case, though, could a gurgle be thought of as a good thing.
I have a hunch I'm hearing "gurgle" and thinking of something entirely different then you were thinking of when you wrote it.
--James
I think what I mean by "gurgle" is just the same as the attack chiff "pop," only when someone's playing fast enough that the individual "pops" sort of blend into a texture that decorates the playing in a pleasing way.
What you're describing may be one type of what I might call a "buzz," though higher frequency buzzes are buzzier and lower frequency buzzes are gurglier. Again, we're in territory where one word might refer to two different things, one of which is desirable for some playing, the other undesirable.
Best wishes,
Jerry
Last edited by Jerry Freeman on Fri Jan 09, 2004 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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lollycross
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I thought that was solved long ago.....-
Jerry Freeman
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Re: Whistle evaluation catagories and their definitions
Naah.NorCalMusician wrote:OK, maybe I am opening up a can of worms....
I suggested once (or twice) but it didn't seem to work.
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... a0aff24105
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Loren
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Maybe I misread somewhere along the line (wouldn't be the first timeJerry Freeman wrote:Hi, Loren.
I'm not sure there's any disagreement here, at least not that I've seen in this thread so far. How would you define "chiff"?
Best wishes,
Jerry
) , but I thought someone had mentioned chiff as being the bubbling sound some whistles make when making not changes. Over the years Chiff has been more or less defined more as you described - basically the turbulent air sound coming off the blade/and our out of the windway and window when one blows, which is of course more or less audiable depending on the whistle.Of course just because we here at C&F seemed to have come to a consensus, doesn't mean we are correct!
Although I do recall some discussion that the term was also used in a similar way in referring to pipe organ sounds (which would make sense). Anyway, I'm simply surprised this topic still gets kicked around so regularly, not trying to start trouble or anything. Hey Dale, isn't there someway we can apply for a definition patent on the word Chiff?
Loren
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Jerry Freeman
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