OT: New Hybrid Auto (one non-OT remark included)

[herbivore12]

What we *really* would have liked, being outdoorsy folks with toys like kayaks and camping gear and bikes, is something like a Subaru Outback or small SUV, powered by a good hybrid or electric motor. Something capable of handling rough roads and carrying a load, while still being a bit more eco-friendly (and a benefit to long term economy, if you consider how precious oil is going to be as stocks keep dwindling). Alas, nothing like that exists yet : I hear some of the American makers may be putting out hybrid SUVs ina few years; hope so.

FWIW, I'm a sizable guy, too (6'1", 235 lbs), and the Civic fits me, though I wouldn't want it any smaller.

I also wouldn't want to get hit by a big truck or SUV, in *any* vehicle. I try to avoid that sort of interaction in general.

[chas]

I agree with you, Stuart. The thing that fries my ass about the fuel cells that Bush touts is, in the end they generate as much or possibly more CO2 than gasoline-powered cars. Making hydrogen costs little energy of done from hydrocarbons, or costs a lot of energy if done from water. You're either making CO2 as a waste product or burning a whole bunch more fuel to get the hydrogen than you'll ever get back. (Sure, we could do it with "green" methods, but those all have issues of their own, from radioactive waste to depleted salmon populations.) Switching the emissions from the city to the country has its positive side, especially if you're in the city, but in the long run solves nothing.

My main complaint with the hybrid Civic was a safety issue, due in large part to the prevalence of large trucks, even in the 'burbs of DC. My next-door neighbors have two F-150's and an Expedition, and I've never seen any of them haul one single thing that I couldn't fit in my Outback, and I've damn near never seen them haul anything period. I don't have a problem with pickup trucks belonging to people who pick things up, but when it's just for show, I get a little touchy.

I tend to lean Libertarian, so, from a very different point of view from yours, I come to the same conclusion -- we need to do something about emissions, mileage, and the general escalation of the mass of vehicles. I personally favor a gas tax akin to those in the rest of the world, but I wouldn't be averse to changes in fleet mileage standards, either making them all higher, or treating any passenger vehicle, including trucks, the same. Why is there a $3000 gas-guzzler tax on a Mercedes but not on an F-150, Expedition, or Suburban that gets the same mileage? It makes no sense.

Y'know what else we need to do something about? People idling their cars in parking lots. That really raises my blood pressure, not to mention, gives me a sore throat.

[Rando7]

I tend to lean Libertarian, so, from a very different point of view from yours, I come to the same conclusion -- we need to do something about emissions, mileage, and the general escalation of the mass of vehicles. I personally favor a gas tax akin to those in the rest of the world, but I wouldn't be averse to changes in fleet mileage standards, either making them all higher, or treating any passenger vehicle, including trucks, the same. Why is there a $3000 gas-guzzler tax on a Mercedes but not on an F-150, Expedition, or Suburban that gets the same mileage? It makes no sense.

Wouldn't the Libertarian position be to get the government out of this issue as much as possible and letting market forces take over rather than tinkering with taxes and fees? I'm not Libertarian myself but do support many of their positions - to me they are in many ways what the GOP claims to be but does not follow through on. To me, the Libertarian position would be to drop all the government subsidies and taxes(on alternate fuels as well as traditional) and let the market sort things out.

[Jerry Freeman]

Aaron, here's a question.

Has anyone measured the electromagnetic fields hybrid cars expose their passengers to (magnetic, in particular)? I've wondered about that for a long time.

You may remember this was an issue with computer monitors a decade or so ago, and the Swedish developed standards that the rest of the world now follows. Then the whole issue of electromagnetic emissions from computers went away.

Best wishes,
Jerry

[chas]

I tend to lean Libertarian, so, from a very different point of view from yours, I come to the same conclusion. . .

Wouldn't the Libertarian position be to get the government out of this issue as much as possible and letting market forces take over rather than tinkering with taxes and fees? I'm not Libertarian myself but do support many of their positions - to me they are in many ways what the GOP claims to be but does not follow through on. To me, the Libertarian position would be to drop all the government subsidies and taxes(on alternate fuels as well as traditional) and let the market sort things out.

You are absolutely right; I'm not a strict Libertarian (that was the lean part). I think that there are places where the market simply will not correct, or won't till it's too late, that are critical. And in the case of environmental issues, that these are within the Federal Government's duties in the Constitution.

[madguy]

What we *really* would have liked, being outdoorsy folks with toys like kayaks and camping gear and bikes, is something like a Subaru Outback or small SUV, powered by a good hybrid or electric motor. Something capable of handling rough roads and carrying a load, while still being a bit more eco-friendly (and a benefit to long term economy, if you consider how precious oil is going to be as stocks keep dwindling). Alas, nothing like that exists yet : I hear some of the American makers may be putting out hybrid SUVs ina few years; hope so.

FWIW, I'm a sizable guy, too (6'1", 235 lbs), and the Civic fits me, though I wouldn't want it any smaller.

I also wouldn't want to get hit by a big truck or SUV, in *any* vehicle. I try to avoid that sort of interaction in general.

I heard last week that Ford will be bringing out a hybrid SUV next year.

~Larry

[Flyingcursor]

I think within a couple of years they will have ironed out a lot of the minor issues with hybrids. The price will drop as well. Like any new technology. I'm thinking of asking my wife if she wants to go test drive one just for the fun of it anyway.

My main complaint with the hybrid Civic was a safety issue, due in large part to the prevalence of large trucks, even in the 'burbs of DC. My next-door neighbors have two F-150's and an Expedition, and I've never seen any of them haul one single thing that I couldn't fit in my Outback, and I've damn near never seen them haul anything period. I don't have a problem with pickup trucks belonging to people who pick things up, but when it's just for show, I get a little touchy.

Chas, I could not possibly agree more. The excuse that an SUV is necessary "because I have kids to haul around" is untenable. I had two kids and a Plymouth Horizon and never suffered for it. I cannot say enough bad things about SUV's since I'd run out of derogatory words in English.
I wonder why in Michigan people have to have a special driving test and license for motorcycles yet any Bozo can get into a giant oversized vehicle with no comprehension of the difference in force and mass from a car.

Now a true story from the hills of Tennesee.

I have a 98 Chevy Lumina. I had just crossed the state line from Kentucky. Going downhill. Speed limit 65. Most people doing around 70. So far no problem. I'm in the left lane about to get back to the right but can't due to traffic. Then suddenly in my rear view mirror I see this obscene Expedition. Or rather I see the grille of the Expedition as the ape behind the wheel is no more then 5 feet from my bumper.
I decided to speed up to try to get over but now traffic is moving faster because we are going down a nice grade. I hit 85, still King Kong is trying to kiss my rear. I hit 90. No change.
Suddenly there's a break in the mountain to my left and in a small saddle between the north and southbound lanes is a Tennesee State Trooper.
His lights came on just about the time I was able to change lanes. The maroon Expedition whipped past like a runaway freight train. About a mile behind I saw the blue lights and within a few seconds the trooper streaked past me out of sight around a bend. About 5 or 6 miles ahead we round a small hill and there is our beloved State Trooper with the Giant SUV pulled off the road. Thank you Tennesee State Police!!!
My wife and I waved as we passed. One small victory against highway tyranny. I wish I could thank that cop.

[herbivore12]

Aaron, here's a question.

Has anyone measured the electromagnetic fields hybrid cars expose their passengers to (magnetic, in particular)? I've wondered about that for a long time.

I haven't seen the EMF measurements for our car specifically, but when we looked into this, we found:

--The cars use DC current, rather than AC. DC transmits virtually no EMF outside of the metal carrying it, if I understood this explanation correctly.

--The EMF measurements taken even in purely electric cars (rather than the hybrids) showed essentially no additional EMF exposure to the occupants compared to any vehicle. The only real increase in EMF exposure was when the car was plugged into the wall for recharging, and that was only within 3 feet of the charger. (The hybrid vehicles do not need to be recharged via wall socket; it's done through regenerative braking and coasting.)

--There was one report -- I think from New Zealand -- that showed that the decrease in the risk of developing cancer and respiratory illnesses far outweighed any potential risk of EMF-related illnesses associated with electric or hybrid vehicles. That is, you're breathing much fewer toxic emissions (and producing fewer for others to breathe) in a hybrid or electric vehicle, and that benefit is considerably greater than any conjectured risk from EMFs in any vehicle.

This was one of the concerns we had, hearing lots of potential ties between EMF and various maladies, but it was a concern allayed when we looked into the matter. I'll see if I can dig up any of those articles, reports, and/or links, if you like, when I get a chance.

--Aaron

[momerath]

--Changes your driving style (mine, anyway) for the better. You get into the fuel-efficiency game, and get a little less aggressive, a little more Buddhist in your driving. Suddenly a couple extra minutes on the road seems okay when you see your real-time MPG display telling you you're getting 80 mpg at the moment. (When driving at a steady speed downhill, not only do you get to watch your charge indicator fill up, but your mileage can start reading 120 mpg, which is fun to see.) I feel a little less stressed about going fast. Much more relaxing, for me.
.

Funny, the same thing happened to me when I acquired my 1973 Jeep Wagoneer--just at the other end of the mileage spectrum. But it was a gift, so I can't complain.

[sturob]

Ohmygosh, did someone actually bring up that old thing about EMF and your body and power lines and cancer?

Wow. I thought that had gone away.

One phrase for that discussion: inverse square law.



Stuart

[Jerry Freeman]

Thanks, Aaron for the info about EMF emissions.

I'd been wondering about that for a long time. I have a friend who's very sensitive to EMF's and has been able to find refuge in a DC wired house.

The power lines/cancer connection hasn't been ruled out, as far as I know. The most comprehensive research I saw back when I was following it came from Sweden, where they were able to correlate cancer cases with lifelong places of residence in large populations much more comprehensively than we would be able to do here because of differences in the ways they track health records and residence records.

They did find a substantially increased risk of childhood leukemia (double to quadruple), depending on the milligauss level of the field, starting with statistically significantly increased risk from anything above two milligauss.

I don't know if there's any reason to be concerned about cancer from cell phones, but I can tell you that they give me splitting headaches. I am able to use mine with an earplug extension wire only.

[sturob]

Jerry, cellphones are a completely different matter. Purely scientifically, I can't imagine why they'd make your head hurt. But if they do, they do. However, there's no denying that holding a transmitter next to your brain might not be the best idea. And given all the stuff in modern cellphones: not only do they usually have the cell transmitter/receiver, but Bluetooth (or Blackberry) transceivers AND (at least in the US) GPS units. So there's a ton of stuff RIGHT THERE next to you.

I've read the stuff you're referring to, including the data from Sweden. I can't get excited about power lines. Those studies have no controls, and it would be very difficult to control them. Every environmental study, looking at the effects of nearly any source of pollution, finds an increase in childhood leukemias. Increase relative to what is a difficult thing to define, though. Do they have families eating exactly the same things stored under indentical conditions, drinking the same water, breathing the same air, conceiving their children under identical conditions, and whose children as fetuses and infants all received exactly the same amount of nutrients, radiation, and drugs? Probably not. Those studies are somewhat interesting but all-in-all I think misleading. There's probably a higher-milligauss or -microgauss field around the home wiring in houses in Sweden than there is due to any proximity from power lines.

Now, the thing I'd really like to see, and the thing that I am afraid the greens won't ever let us do, is irradiate food. I have never found a single argument against gamma-sterilization of foods that I thought was relevant. We could put a real dent into illness and even death by irradiating, but we're just not doing it. I wish we were.

On a side note . . . I recently bought a new computer (a Mac) and I have to tell you that for all the bravado I may exhibit, it did give me pause to find out that it was FedExed from Taiwan. And, because of FedEx's excellent service ( ), it arrived here in the US less than 24 hours after leaving Taiwan. SARS, anyone? I mean, who knows how it's transmitted. I kind of hoped that they'd taken longer so the little SARS thingies might die. But, so far no cough or fever. Maybe I should have had the box irradiated!

Stuart

[joeln]

A friend of mine told me the hidden problem with hybrids is that the battery pack needs to be replaced every few years to the tune of thousands of dollars. Can anybody confirm this? Personally I think hybrids are very cool and am super jealous.
- Joel

[herbivore12]

A friend of mine told me the hidden problem with hybrids is that the battery pack needs to be replaced every few years to the tune of thousands of dollars. Can anybody confirm this? Personally I think hybrids are very cool and am super jealous.
- Joel

The battery pack in the Civic -- and I imagine this is probably true of the Prius -- is designed to last the lifetime of the car. To allay nervousness about this, the battery is warranted for a much longer time than the car is. The warranty on my battery pack (and I didn't pay for an extended warranty) is for 8 years/ 100,000 miles. So at least if it turns out the pack needs replacing every few years, I'll be getting the new one for free!

I think this was more of a problem in earlier electric-conversion vehicles than it is in the new hybrids; at least, I've not read a single thing noting battery life as a problem. Yet. Crossing my fingers. . .

We're happy with the thing so far, but wouldn't be if we wanted a high-performace car, or needed to tow things, or were especially afraid of bigger vehicles on the road (this would be a problem in any small car, though, I suppose). For a commuter car, or for long trips without a trailer or super rough roads, it's great.