paddler wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2024 1:28 am
Cyberknight wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 11:32 pm
Nor is the 10-hole keyless chromatic whistle for high D whistles "non-ergonomic." It's perfectly ergonomic. Rather than having a cumbersome key for F natural that requires you to pivot your right-hand middle finger to a different position to push a button, you simply briefly lower your right thumb for F natural and place it back when you're done, which takes a microsecond. D sharp is just as easy. There's nothing "non-ergonomic" about it.
The fact that it fixes the position of both thumbs and requires you to have both pinky fingers in contact with the whistle at the same fixed locations, for everyone, regardless of hand size and shape, and for most of the time, is the very epitome of being non-ergonomic. The conventional whistle design and keyed or keyless flute designs allow each individual player to place their thumbs and pinky fingers wherever it suits them to match their personal needs. Everyone is different, so the actual locations vary a lot from one player to another. When you have 4 additional open tone holes that have to be kept covered most of the time it constrains the movement of 40% of your fingers! That is just awful from an ergonomic standpoint. This is why closed keys are pretty much universal on keyed Irish flutes, the only exception being the foot keys, which remain open for obvious reasons.
It actually only fixes the position of one pinky, not both - at least, the version I have. Mark 2s do fix the position of both pinkies, but mine doesn't.
At any rate, I don't want to get too bogged down in this "ergonomics" issue because we obviously are going to have to agree to disagree on this particular point. So this will be my last post on that point unless you desire a more detailed conversation about it. But I think your problem is that you're making mountains out of molehills. While there are indeed variations in where exactly people place their non-playing fingers, we're talking about variations that are usually a fraction of a centimeter. And even if people have a certain thumb position that they find comfortable, it doesn't necessarily follow that any other thumb position they might try will be uncomfortable; it's like you're assuming that there's only ONE possible "ergonomic" thumb position for each person, and that just isn't the case.
It simply isn't a big deal to expect people to very slightly reposition their fingers from what they're used to in order to play the instrument. I remember I had to readjust somewhat, but it wasn't a big deal, and I got used to it in about a week. If you tried this design, as I have, I think you'd agree.
As for keys, a maker can change the location of the key touch to match the needs of the player, without being constrained by the acoustics. This is not possible with open holes.
Oh come now, this is really stretching. The vast majority of people who own flutes don't get the keys put in custom positions; most makers wouldn't even do this, and even if they would, most players wouldn't even bother asking for it. The vast majority of flutes that people buy have the keys in fixed positions, with no input from the player. So to portray this as some kind of great advantage of the keyed system is a bit absurd.
Also, for what it's worth, it's theoretically possible to micro-adjust open holes. You can move them forward and backward slightly, changing their size, or you can move them horizontally. But none of this is necessary anyway, because a standardized design isn't non-ergonomic, and anyone can easily adjust to it.
Also, if the keys are closed by default, you only need to activate them on the occasion when they are needed. The fact that most of the music can be played on the 6 open tone holes means that even if there is an ergonomic cost to pressing a key touch, it is only incurred very rarely.
Yeah, ok, fair enough. But it's not an "if"; there IS an ergonomic cost, and it's significantly more than the cost of having open holes. And, at least in the sessions I play at, it's not as "rare" as you seem to think it is. D dorian tunes are quite common, and they require F natural keys.
Your discussion of keyed flutes just betrays the same level of arrogance and ignorance that has triggered most of the responses in this thread about whistles. Here again you disregard the actual choices that have won out in practice, or you trivialize the reasons for them. Many people here will find that insulting.
There's rarely any good reason to get annoyed at someone for his opinion, my friend. It's my opinion that the flute is overengineered and could be improved. There's nothing "arrogant" about having this opinion. Opinions can't hurt you. If you disagree, that's fine.
As for "ignorant," you didn't offer any reason as to why you think I'm being ignorant. There is absolutely nothing ignorant about saying that an open-hole B flat key is objectively superior to a closed-hole B flat key. I've never in my life heard the slightest justification for why a closed-hole key would be better. If you disagree with me on this point and have some valid defense of the closed-hole B flat design, I'm all ears. But don't go around talking about "centuries of flute-makers" and pretending that the current design we have simply MUST be the best possible design, simply because it's old. That just isn't the case. Some things exist just because they are convention, and I strongly believe this is one of those things.
Anyway, none of this is that relevant to my main point about whistles, which is that having a single F natural hole is far superior to having two keys for F natural, both of which require you to awkwardly reposition your hand in order to use them. I really can't understand why someone would advocate having two closed-hole keys instead of a single hole. Like, do you WANT the key of F to be a nightmare to play?