Double hole whistles?

[Mr.Gumby]

second, "pulling out a different whistle" might work for F major, but not for other keys that fiddles sometimes play in, like E major or B major, for example. Good luck finding an affordable E whistle.

I have a Sindt B, I suppose I am covered. Only I have yet to encounter a fiddle tune here in those keys. I lead a sheltered life, perhaps.

I want an instrument that plays chromatically

And you have one. But why do you keep insisting everybody else should get one too?

Give us a tune, show it off, convince us.

[Cyberknight]

second, "pulling out a different whistle" might work for F major, but not for other keys that fiddles sometimes play in, like E major or B major, for example. Good luck finding an affordable E whistle.

I have a Sindt B, I suppose I am covered. Only I have yet to encounter a fiddle tune here in those keys. I lead a sheltered life, perhaps.

I want an instrument that plays chromatically

And you have one. But why do you keep insisting everybody else should get one too?

Give us a tune, show it off, convince us.

E and B are more common in Scottish tunes. Especially E. I have an E whistle, but I strongly dislike it. Almost no makers make them, unfortunately.

I've never insisted that everybody else get one. That's a straw man. I simply said I wish they were far more common and available.

Yes, I have one. But it's not really fit for sessions, because it's too quiet. Thus, I don't play it a lot any more. If I can ever get a chromatic Goldie whistle (which may be possible - Colin seemed open to the idea), then that will likely become my main instrument. And yes, I'll absolutely post recordings, if that will convince people it's a good design.

[stringbed]

English flageolets aren’t the same as whistles and don’t sound that much like whistles; historically, they were also unnecessarily expensive compared to whistles due to their wooden construction (which is likely why whistles overtook/replaced them in ITM).

The English flageolet came first and was being used to play traditional Irish dance tunes before the tin whistle was spun off from it as a less expensive alternative. The comparison of their respective sounds is subjective and anyone unfamiliar with the elder of them will find a useful demo here.

My point was that very, very few makers have constructed actual tin whistles - the preferred instrument for ITM - with keys.

The tin whistle streamlined the keyed English flageolet in part by forgoing the keys. Pretty much by definition, that’s now the “Irish tin whistle.” If we wish to encumber it by restoring the keys, we’d have yet another design that would require a qualifying label, and might or might not gain the favor of the ITM community. There’s been no indication of things moving in that direction but, sure, it could happen.

…as I previously pointed out, 10-hole whistles are superior to fully keyed whistles in numerous ways.

You pointed out that it is superior in your opinion. You can say that as often as you’d like but opinion does not become fact by strident repetition.

[Cyberknight]

My point was that very, very few makers have constructed actual tin whistles - the preferred instrument for ITM - with keys.

The tin whistle streamlined the English flageolet in part by forgoing the keys. Pretty much by definition, that’s now the “Irish tin whistle.” If we wish to encumber it by restoring the keys, we’d have yet another design that would require a qualifying label, and might or might not gain the favor of the ITM community. There’s been no indication of things moving in that direction but, sure, it could happen.

…as I previously pointed out, 10-hole whistles are superior to fully keyed whistles in numerous ways.

You pointed out that it is superior in your opinion. You can say that as often as you’d like but opinion does not become fact by strident repetition.

I never advocated restoring keys to the tin whistle. I advocated a better alternative. But anyway, just because the flageolet lost its keys and became diatonic in its incarnation as the tin whistle does NOT mean that in the future, tin whistles won't become chromatic. Remember that Irish flutes mostly lost their keys, only to begin regaining them in the 21st century.

And yes, of course it's superior in my opinion. But so far, no one has offered any reason to question my opinion or reasoning. I see no reason why keys son a whistle would be superior to the cheaper, more flexible alternative of adding extra holes.

[stringbed]

Remember that Irish flutes mostly lost their keys, only to begin regaining them in the 21st century.

This is an outright corruption of history (saying this as a musicologist who began publishing on the history of woodwind instruments over 50 years ago).

…no one has offered any reason to question my opinion or reasoning.

I guess we haven’t been reading the same discussion.

[Kedster]

I could make ChatGPT continue this discussion, in case you guys are tired.

[Mr.Gumby]

Just let it die, please (it should have been let go pages ago).

After all that

Yes, I have one. But it's not really fit for sessions, because it's too quiet. Thus, I don't play it a lot any more.

really takes the cake.

[Cyberknight]

Remember that Irish flutes mostly lost their keys, only to begin regaining them in the 21st century.

This is an outright corruption of history (saying this as a musicologist who began publishing on the history of woodwind instruments over 50 years ago).

…no one has offered any reason to question my opinion or reasoning.

I guess we haven’t been reading the same discussion.

Well, I made that claim several posts ago. If you think it's a corruption of history, I'd love to hear your perspective. Like I said, I'm no historical expert, that was just my impression.

Do you deny that flute-makers in the 60s and 70s began, for the first time, the widespread practice of making keyless R&R and Pratten style flutes? And do you deny that over time, more and more makers began adding keys to the flutes in keeping with 19th-century tradition, so that now, there are more makers making keyed flutes than there were in the 70s? Because those two points are the only historical claims I'm making. If I'm wrong, please tell me exactly what points I'm wrong about.

And yes, we have been reading the same discussion, and no one has even attempted to refute my argument for why extra holes are superior to keys. Like, my argument very well could be wrong, but no one even offered a refutation on that point. I guess you haven't been reading the discussion carefully, or you would know this.

Just let it die, please (it should have been let go pages ago).

After all that

Yes, I have one. But it's not really fit for sessions, because it's too quiet. Thus, I don't play it a lot any more.

really takes the cake.

What's your point exactly? Are you arguing it's unreasonable to think that a tapered-bore whistle is too quiet for large sessions? Or are you just out of things to say?

And yes, it is indeed a tiresome discussion. I keep thinking it's over, and then someone makes another rather flippant remark about my position, which I think warrants a response.

[David Cooper]

This has been a useful discussion though. I had been thinking a out experimenting with making a chromatic quena but couldn't decide how to go about it as there are lots of potential ways of doing things.

(Incidentally, I'd like to do it with a piano too by having extra black keys so that you can play the whole tone scale on the white keys, and do the same thing starting a semitone higher on the black keys - you'd then only need to learn to play in two keys to be able to play in any other, but it would take a lot of effort and expense to make one. Maybe that would be the perfect keyboard for the masses, and the reach to span an octave with one hand would also be more comfortable and accessible to small hands, but that's something people could argue about elsewhere, and probably already have done. Maybe the fingering would be so awkward that it's a non-starter, but without a keyboard to try it out on, that's hard to judge.)

Anyway, despite my doubts about needing one myself, I'd still like to try making a chromatic flute-whistle to find out, and I'm sure I could make one with high quality sound at affordable cost. I've actually just made my first prototype whistle head quenilla-whistle converter which is already producing better tone than my old untweaked Generations, so I'm now planning to set things up to manufacture and sell flute-whistles made of resin, and for a little extra cost I'll be happy to drill the holes in the quantity and positions individual customers want them.

I've looked up the Morneaux Mark 1 and saw the Mark 2 there as well. The first has a doubled hole on it, while the second has a separate hole which appears to be made in a projection that sticks out from the tube to make it more practical to play, but harder to manufacture. I can't see where the holes are on the underside, and I can't work out how you produce the full range of 12 notes, so what I'd like to see now is an explanation of that.

[NicoMoreno]

…no one has offered any reason to question my opinion or reasoning.

I guess we haven’t been reading the same discussion.

And yes, we have been reading the same discussion, and no one has even attempted to refute my argument for why extra holes are superior to keys.

I think the problem is that you keep moving the goalposts, and this is a good example. The first post from you makes it seem that you mean no one has offered any reason to question the need for a chromatic whistle, of which there have been many, but then you come back with a reply that changes your meaning to be that there was no one questioning why a keyed whistle is better than a chromatic whistle with only holes for extra fingers. You've done this type of goalpost moving several times, and it does become quite cumbersome to try to reply.

Needless to say, lots of people have questioned the need for a chromatic whistle, myself included.

[Mr.Gumby]

What's your point exactly? Are you arguing it's unreasonable to think that a tapered-bore whistle is too quiet for large sessions? Or are you just out of things to say?

The fact you have been talking about your whistle as if it is the greatest thing since sliced bread and then in the end casually drop you can't actually be arsed to play it. As if the only option for playing it is at sessions. It makes the whole thing laughable.

[Cyberknight]

What's your point exactly? Are you arguing it's unreasonable to think that a tapered-bore whistle is too quiet for large sessions? Or are you just out of things to say?

The fact you have been talking about your whistle as if it is the greatest thing since sliced bread and then in the end casually drop you can't actually be arsed to play it. As if the only option for playing it is at sessions. It makes the whole thing laughable.

Only laughable if you lack proper reading comprehension.

I said the *fingering scheme* is the best thing since sliced bread, which it is. I never said the whistle itself is perfect in every way - it certainly isn't. It isn't very good as a session whistle.

I also never said that I would never play it or that the only option for playing it is at a session - both of these are invalid inferences from my statement. I merely stated that I don't practice it much any more, because it isn't very good for sessions. Sessions are the main place I play at the moment, so naturally I'm mainly going to practice on my session whistle. If I started recording a bunch, I might switch back to the Morneaux and start practicing that again.

What would be rather "laughable" is if the main whistle I currently practiced was one that doesn't work too well for large sessions, even though the main place I play at the moment is at large sessions. That would be bizarre, in fact.

[Cyberknight]

I guess we haven’t been reading the same discussion.

And yes, we have been reading the same discussion, and no one has even attempted to refute my argument for why extra holes are superior to keys.

I think the problem is that you keep moving the goalposts, and this is a good example. The first post from you makes it seem that you mean no one has offered any reason to question the need for a chromatic whistle, of which there have been many, but then you come back with a reply that changes your meaning to be that there was no one questioning why a keyed whistle is better than a chromatic whistle with only holes for extra fingers. You've done this type of goalpost moving several times, and it does become quite cumbersome to try to reply.

Needless to say, lots of people have questioned the need for a chromatic whistle, myself included.

No, other people are changing the goalposts, not me. If you actually bother reading the "first post" I made in the above quotation chain, which stringbed conveniently added ellipses to and did not fully quote, I was CLEARLY stating that no one had offered "any reason" why keys would be better than a 10-hole design. That's literally, exactly what I said. I was just misinterpreted, because for some reason people get triggered when they hear me talk about chromatic whistles and insist on attacking everything I say like I'm on trial.

[paddler]

And do you deny that over time, more and more makers began adding keys to the flutes in keeping with 19th-century tradition, so that now, there are more makers making keyed flutes than there were in the 70s? Because those two points are the only historical claims I'm making. If I'm wrong, please tell me exactly what points I'm wrong about.

Yes, you are wrong about that. There are far more keyless Irish flutes around today than there ever used to be. There are makers who will make a keyed flute, but most of them still make more keyless flutes than keyed flutes, because there is a big market for them, and of course they are cheaper. The keyless flute is capable enough that it can be used to make music at the highest levels. When you complicate it in order to address chromaticity limitations you also introduce disadvantages. For some players it is worth it, and for others not.

It is also worth bearing in mind that half holing, particularly on the D#/Eb note is much harder on a flute than on a whistle, so much so that I'd claim that the six hole whistle basically IS fully chromatic through the use of relatively easy half holing, whereas the six hole flute of the Irish style really isn't. You can modify the keyless flute design to make the tone holes larger, etc, as with a bansuri, for example, to address this, or you can add a foot key, or you could try adding extra holes along the lines you are suggesting. Everything has been tried and various solutions shake out, some more popular than others.

And yes, we have been reading the same discussion, and no one has even attempted to refute my argument for why extra holes are superior to keys. Like, my argument very well could be wrong, but no one even offered a refutation on that point. I guess you haven't been reading the discussion carefully, or you would know this.

I gave you a very comprehensive explanation for why extra holes are problematic. You stubbornly ignored it. In a nutshell, extra holes without keys constrain the placement of fingers on the instrument, which is very problematic ergonomically. For most people, this is so much so that it is disqualifying. With keys, the instrument can be designed such that the keys are closed by default, thereby leaving fingers free to stabilize the instrument in the location that matches the players hand size and flexibility requirements.

But keys also introduce complexity, cost and more possibilities for leaks, so many players in ITM decide that the capabilities of a keyless instrument are more than sufficient for the vast majority of tunes, and they put in the time to learn to half hole, cross finger, or otherwise improvise (by note substitution, say) to avoid notes that may be problematic for them. As a result, they get to enjoy an instrument that is reliable, ergonomically excellent, and relatively inexpensive. In the case of whistles, they are so inexpensive that you can have a quiver of whistles in different keys, allowing you to play virtually all Irish tunes, for less than the cost of a keyless flute ... which itself is an inexpensive instrument.

So my advice would be to spend time practicing half holing, and spend money on whistles in a few complementary keys, rather than spending so much time typing and spending money on an obscure and more expensive instrument with poor ergonomics that still won't give you as useful a range as a set of whistles in different keys.

Now I'll take my own advice regarding the typing!

[NicoMoreno]

And yes, we have been reading the same discussion, and no one has even attempted to refute my argument for why extra holes are superior to keys.

I think the problem is that you keep moving the goalposts, and this is a good example. The first post from you makes it seem that you mean no one has offered any reason to question the need for a chromatic whistle, of which there have been many, but then you come back with a reply that changes your meaning to be that there was no one questioning why a keyed whistle is better than a chromatic whistle with only holes for extra fingers. You've done this type of goalpost moving several times, and it does become quite cumbersome to try to reply.

Needless to say, lots of people have questioned the need for a chromatic whistle, myself included.

No, other people are changing the goalposts, not me. If you actually bother reading the "first post" I made in the above quotation chain, which stringbed conveniently added ellipses to and did not fully quote, I was CLEARLY stating that no one had offered "any reason" why keys would be better than a 10-hole design. That's literally, exactly what I said. I was just misinterpreted, because for some reason people get triggered when they hear me talk about chromatic whistles and insist on attacking everything I say like I'm on trial.

Fair enough, that was a bad example. There were earlier things you said that made me post, I just didn't want to scroll all the way back to find them. No matter.

no one has even attempted to refute my argument for why extra holes are superior to keys.

I gave you a very comprehensive explanation for why extra holes are problematic. You stubbornly ignored it. In a nutshell, extra holes without keys constrain the placement of fingers on the instrument, which is very problematic ergonomically. For most people, this is so much so that it is disqualifying. With keys, the instrument can be designed such that the keys are closed by default, thereby leaving fingers free to stabilize the instrument in the location that matches the players hand size and flexibility requirements.

Yep, agreed 100% with this.

As an aside, the maxim "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" would seem to apply to this discussion, especially around the assertion that whistle players simply haven't played "extra-holed" whistles.