Double hole whistles?

[Kedster]

In the case of whistles, they are so inexpensive that you can have a quiver of whistles in different keys, allowing you to play virtually all Irish tunes, for less than the cost of a keyless flute ... which itself is an inexpensive instrument.

I come from guitars, where my last purchase was a $1000 electro-classic (which has solid top, ebony fretboard, sleek cutaway, so a fine item for that price, but regardless, a mass produced factory guitar).

For less than €400, I've got Colin Goldie playing Shine on You Crazy Diamond for me, picking out which one of his F whistles sound best for it.

It's insane, we're not worthy of these intrument makers.

[Cyberknight]

And do you deny that over time, more and more makers began adding keys to the flutes in keeping with 19th-century tradition, so that now, there are more makers making keyed flutes than there were in the 70s? Because those two points are the only historical claims I'm making. If I'm wrong, please tell me exactly what points I'm wrong about.

Yes, you are wrong about that. There are far more keyless Irish flutes around today than there ever used to be. There are makers who will make a keyed flute, but most of them still make more keyless flutes than keyed flutes, because there is a big market for them, and of course they are cheaper. The keyless flute is capable enough that it can be used to make music at the highest levels. When you complicate it in order to address chromaticity limitations you also introduce disadvantages. For some players it is worth it, and for others not.

This wasn't my understanding. You may well be correct, but I'd appreciate it if stringbed, who claims to be a music historian, would chime in on this point (he previously accused me of "corrupting history" but didn't say specifically which point I was mistaken about). I'm pretty sure that when it comes to the kind of flutes that flute-makers primarily construct, keyless flutes were more popular in the 70s than they are now.

I gave you a very comprehensive explanation for why extra holes are problematic. You stubbornly ignored it. In a nutshell, extra holes without keys constrain the placement of fingers on the instrument, which is very problematic ergonomically. For most people, this is so much so that it is disqualifying. With keys, the instrument can be designed such that the keys are closed by default, thereby leaving fingers free to stabilize the instrument in the location that matches the players hand size and flexibility requirements.

Oh come off it. I didn't "ignore" anything. I specifically responded to every single thing that you said. I noted that some of your points were valid but were exaggerated, and I pointed out specifically how. Moreover, never ONCE did you specifically address the question of whether extra holes are better than keys. That issue didn't even come up when we were having our back-and-forth, because no one had yet raised keyed whistles as an alternative. You and I literally never had a discussion about whether keyed whistles are superior to whistles with extra holes. Since you now (apparently) want to discuss that, I'm happy to.

You're right that keys introduce complexity, cost, and possibility for leaks. I also pointed out numerous other disadvantages they have when compared to holes - disadvantages that no one on this discussion has even disputed. The main downsides of keys is that they don't allow for the same kinds of ornamentation as open holes. They're also not as responsive, because they require a more significant finger motion than lifting a finger off of a hole. There's fewer motions when you lift a finger off a hole and place it back over, as opposed to lifting your finger up, moving it forward, placing it over a key, lifting it up again, and returning it to its original position. Holes are more efficient. Finally, they also preserve the more simple, traditional aesthetic of the whistle.

[paddler]

Cyberknight, you seem to not understand even the basics of what I and others keep telling you, most of which is clearly stated and pretty obvious. You simply disagree and keep typing. Obviously, we are flogging a dead horse here.

It isn't long ago that you were telling us all how Colin Goldie whistles were out of tune and needed to be fixed. I know you've since changed your opinion, but maybe you should extrapolate a bit from these kinds of experiences. Maybe in a few weeks time you'll be telling us all about the merits of the 6-hole whistle. Its good to have revelations and be excited about them, but a lot of people on these forums have been at this for a long time and have a great deal of expertise.

[Cyberknight]

Cyberknight, you seem to not understand even the basics of what I and others keep telling you, most of which is clearly stated and pretty obvious. You simply disagree and keep typing. Obviously, we are flogging a dead horse here.

Paddler, I've made many concessions during this discussion (even modifying my initial position), I've listened carefully to what people have said, and I've typed detailed responses to people's ideas, including every single objection you raised about "my proposed design," as you called it (even though it isn't a "proposal" and I didn't come up with it). This is the exact opposite of "disagree and keep typing," which is what you appear to be doing. If you're determined to hate chromatic whistles, you will hate them. It's as simple as that. I can't fix bias and prejudice. All I can do is patiently state my position and respond to people who desperately strawman my position.

[Cyberknight]

It isn't long ago that you were telling us all how Colin Goldie whistles were out of tune and needed to be fixed. I know you've since changed your opinion, but maybe you should extrapolate a bit from these kinds of experiences. Maybe in a few weeks time you'll be telling us all about the merits of the 6-hole whistle. Its good to have revelations and be excited about them, but a lot of people on these forums have been at this for a long time and have a great deal of expertise.

And since you edited your response and added yet another misrepresentation of my position, I suppose I'll respond to that one as well.

No, I never said that Colin Goldie whistles were out of tune and "needed to be fixed." I said that my personal Goldie seemed very sharp in the second octave (the precise wording I used was "it has, if anything, the opposite problem of having too much octave spread"). And I edited that comment within a half hour of posting it, clarifying that the problem could easily be the way I was playing it and not the whistle itself, and that I was going back and forth on whether it was actually too sharp. As it turns out (and I clarified this a day or two later), the whistle was in tune, and I was the problem (I was just trying to play too loudly in the second octave).

It's extremely condescending for you to use my comments on Goldie whistles to insinuate that I'm fickle about my positions and might change my opinion regarding chromatic whistles. I made that comment about Goldie whistles the day after I received my first Goldie whistle, and I was posting my initial thoughts about it, with reservations. Naturally, my mind changed as I got used to playing it (as often happens).

I've played my Morneaux chromatic whistle for 6 years. I'm pretty sure I have a good idea about how it plays, and I'm not going to go changing my mind about how much I like it.

EDIT: I want you to know that there are no hard feelings whatsoever about this discussion. I respect everyone on here as good and experienced musicians, and I hope I don't come off as heated or annoyed. I'm really not. I'm just a bit perplexed by people's combative attitudes and wish that people would read my posts a bit more carefully.

[Wanderer]

Pardon me, but this comment doesn't make a lot of sense, at least insofar as you talk about D+ whistles. D+ whistles certainly aren't for everyone, but playing one doesn't require you to "relearn" any muscle memory, since they don't require any different fingerings for any of the standard notes. There is also no reason why you'd need to tape the hole on one. If you tape the bottom hole on a D+ whistle, it will screw up the tuning of all the lower notes. You can simply not use the bottom hole, but taping it is pointless.

I felt it was perhaps self-evident that when I talked about covering holes, it was implied that I covered only those holes necessary. Apologies if that wasn't obvious.

As for C natural holes, I've never seen the point of those

Here you make the argument that I feel many people will make about a 10-hole whistle (though I'm certainly able to be wrong on these things). They won't see the point since a standard 6-hole whistle will get the job done for the majority of music they're liable to play.

But again, why would you need to tape the C natural hole? You can just keep it covered; taping it is pointless.

Because a thumb hole necessitates keeping your thumb in the precise position required to cover the hole. Taping it doesn't.

And finally, nothing you're saying is a real criticism to 10-hole chromatic whistles like the Morneaux Mark 1.

You may be feeling a little defensive. Which may be understandable. I gave no criticism about 10-hole whistles of any kind. My commentary was more about myself finding no use for one and about my guesses as to the community's feeling about them. And my prognostication that perhaps and especially at first, it would be considered a curiosity, and it would take some time before becoming commonly accepted--if ever. I didn't even give any discouragement about making the experiment, and specifically pointed out that having a limited market at the start was not necessarily a reason not to try.

[Nanohedron]

Surely I can't be the only one who finds this thread's turn tedious. Makes me not even want to read it in hopes of useful stuff.

[Loren]

Surely I can't be the only one who finds this thread's turn tedious. Makes me not even want to read it in hopes of useful stuff.

« What we have here, is a failure to communicate. »

[david_h]

« What we have here, is a failure to communicate. »

I find that the people who are making points that I understand and agree with are communicating more clearly at each attempt.

I am curious to know the *traditional* music genres for which a chromatic whistle is used.

[Kedster]

« What we have here, is a failure to communicate. »

I find that the people who are making points that I understand and agree with are communicating more clearly at each attempt.

I am curious to know the *traditional* music genres for which a chromatic whistle is used.

Apparently, Balkan/Slavic folk music makes use of harmonic minor rather extensively. There's also a lot of Arabic influenced folk scales in the wider region using 3 semitone gaps (the augmented second, for example Hijaz / Phyrigian Dominant Scale, which is very difficult on a tin whistle and some flutemakers like Erik or Freeman have special flutes for those type of intervals, and there's the Traditional Turkish flute Ney) -a lot of traditional Japanese scales also have this augmented second- and there's a lot of semitone-semitone-semitone using scales (like B-C-Db, Hungarian Gypsy, Indian Purvi) again while is possible, certainly not ideal on a tin whistle, as you may want to accentuate the notes more precisely, especially in faster moving passages. Indian Purvi is generally played slower on Bansuri (same as a whistle), and they indeed use half holes for the intervals. Hungarian Gypsy is usually played fast paced.

There's quite a few good reasons why someone in traditional music background would like/need a chromatic whistle as most of these scales usually have their own special flutes. Erik has a fantastic video on some of these scales - a chromatic whistle significantly reduces the amount of flutes one needs to play these old-world scales. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhmoUGLoTgU

I'm sure there are brilliant whistlers who can play these on the simple diatonic whistle, but that is a result of not-so-insignificant amount of hardwork and patience. In contrast, a chromatic whistle, with its difficulties, allows these types of scales to be learned as quickly as for example, someone to learn Slow Air on a whistle. A whistle built for Hijaz can't really* play anything else by contrast. There's always these kinds of trade-offs.

[Loren]

« What we have here, is a failure to communicate. »

I find that the people who are making points that I understand and agree with are communicating more clearly at each attempt.

Agreed.

It only takes one party to create a……communication breakdown…(Sing it Robert!)

[david_h]

... most of these scales usually have their own special flutes.

Thanks (for the whole post). The point above was what I suspected.

In the styles of music most often discussed here, especially Irish, the idiomatic way of playing a wind instrument is greatly influenced buy 'how it works'. If a tune will fit on a D whistle in, say, D major or G major then how it is ornamented will differ between the two and the octave break is in a different place.

To play idiomatically (and probably more ergonomically) why not switch to a whistle tuned for the native scale rather than approximate? Maybe expensive for flute but not so much for whistle.

[Kedster]

... most of these scales usually have their own special flutes.

Thanks (for the whole post). The point above was what I suspected.

In the styles of music most often discussed here, especially Irish, the idiomatic way of playing a wind instrument is greatly influenced buy 'how it works'. If a tune will fit on a D whistle in, say, D major or G major then how it is ornamented will differ between the two and the octave break is in a different place.

To play idiomatically (and probably more ergonomically) why not switch to a whistle tuned for the native scale rather than approximate? Maybe expensive for flute but not so much for whistle.

I don't know, some people enjoy having a toolbox full of items, some people enjoy carrying a swiss army knife. Courses for horses.

I admit there's something beautiful about simple scale flutes - especially the pentatonic ones. The flute is optimised without pretense and subsequently has its own attitude. But there's also something wonderful about clarinets, concert flute -ian anderson doesn't need more than 1 instrument (although i remember him talking about going on tours with about 15-20 student models bought at bargain, just because of his tendency to drop and break flutes).

Perhaps it's our innate monogamist stirrings making us ashamed of having multiple instruments, who knows? Whenever I see someone saying "An instument is a lifelong partner", I remark that it's more like a concubine in my vast, dusty harem. Oh, how bored do my girls get.

[Moof]

I don't know, some people enjoy having a toolbox full of items, some people enjoy carrying a swiss army knife. Courses for horses.

That's what's made me giggle about the whole thing. People with chromatic whistles would still end up with half a drawerful of them, just like people with whistles in different keys, because none of them is exactly right for everything.

The Swiss Army knife with all the tools usually gets left at home, because the one with just a blade and a screwdriver is more useable and less bulky.

[Loren]

I don't know, some people enjoy having a toolbox full of items, some people enjoy carrying a swiss army knife. Courses for horses.

That's what's made me giggle about the whole thing. People with chromatic whistles would still end up with half a drawerful of them, just like people with whistles in different keys, because none of them is exactly right for everything.

Or perhaps, the player isn’t right for any of those whistles……