Chiff and Fipple Forums

I see on many YouTube whistle reviews and whistle maker websites the concern about making whistles at low weight. For the higher keys, meaning smaller whistles, and from my experience, sometimes adding some mass to the whistle adjusts the tone in ways I prefer. And considering we're dealing with such a small object, the weight of the whistle has never concerned me. We're not talking about brass bassoons here. So, I'm wondering if anyone has found they prefer the tone and playability of whistles that are more heavy for their size than the average on the market, perhaps more thick-walled brass or aluminum or heavy/dense wood, or if people have attached some extra mass to whistles to improve the tone. If you can mention makers and keys of whistle, that would help. If you added mass to the whistle, how did you do that? Photos?

I'm suspecting that it's nothing to do with weight, it's all to do with wall thickness, RoberTunes. But of course, increase the wall thickness and the weight goes up, people notice that and assume that it's the active ingredient. Whereas it's really just a side effect.

The active ingredient I reckon is the wall thickness. It's pretty thin in the whistles we have known for Generations - about 0.3mm, less for Clarkes. A little thicker on some recent whistles, eg about 0.45 on the Killarney. And maybe a mm or more on some aluminium and copper whistles. But thicker again on a wooden whistle - 3mm or more - that's 10 times thicker than the Generation! And that extra wall thickness means that each hole now acts more like a tube, with defined diameter and length, and that tube sits effectively on the end of the length of body tube you have selected with your fingering.

So, if we imagine playing G on a D whistle:
- thin wall whistle looks like head - body down to fourth hole - fourth hole - air,
whereas:
- thick wall whistle looks like head - body down to fourth hole - fourth hole tube - air.

Now when we compare the diameters of the main body tube and the finger hole tube, we see that the later are much smaller, and therefore act significantly on the vibrating air column. And more importantly, tend to act differently on the partials and the fundamental, modifying tone colour. But also modifying pitch of both fundamental and partials, again differently.

And in both of those cases, the remainder of the tubing from the fourth hole down to the foot also remains partly in the equation, more so in the case of the thick wall whistle as the fourth hole is less of a "short circuit" to the outside air. It all suddenly gets a bit more complicated!

RoberTunes wrote: ↑Fri Aug 18, 2023 11:36 am And considering we're dealing with such a small object, the weight of the whistle has never concerned me.

I really like my Killarney, but I can't play it all the time. It sounds absurd, but that small additional weight is enough to start the early stages of nerve impingement if I do more than about half an hour a day on it. Most of my tune learning's done on an old Feadog or Gen, which I seem to be able to play for as long as I like.

So weight can be an issue for some arthritic old crocks, even on a high D. With low whistles it's easy to use a sax harness to take the weight, but smaller whistles are held at a different angle.

Very interesting, Moof. Focusing on the Killarney, do you think it's the absolute weight that bothers you, about 68 gms compared to the Generation's 35gms, or perhaps it's more to do with weight balance?

The Generation balances just a bit above the top hole; whereas the Killarney balances about half way between the top hole and the head. I'm not overly bothered by the "head-heavy" imbalance in the Killarney, but I sure notice it. "Bit weird" I think, but I can live with it. It's not a favoured whistle; perhaps if it were, I'd be less forgiving!

"Head-heavy" can be a real big issue in flutes (which of course are held horizontally, not more vertically). It drives you nuts!

I'm not sure exactly what it is that makes me tense my hands slightly. It might even partly be that my old whistles are heavily tarnished but the Killarney is still slippery? I half-stick my thumbs to them all with little pads of Blu Tack, but it doesn't prevent this.

Anyway whatever it is, I can't relax completely the way I do playing the Feadogs and Gens. I'm also more likely to find I'm not covering holes fully, or need to lower the BPM because I'm losing the pulse. (Same with low whistles, my accuracy is noticeably better on the lighter ones.) I do know what you mean about the heavy head on the Killarney, but I don't get the sense it has much to to with it – after all, it's a grip point of sorts, and I'd probably be tensing my lips if it were slipping there.

I've often toyed with the idea of trying flute (I've never played before, unlike whistle, and I love the sound). But then I'm forced back to ground level by the fact that if I can manage to get nerve impingement with my shoulders easy and my hands in front of me, it's idiocy to think I'd last 10 minutes holding a flute!

Anyway, to get back a bit closer to the actual question, does wall thickness influence volume too, or is that other factors? My Killarney isn't very different in bore size to the old Feadogs, but it's much louder.

It certainly seems to affect the tone. The thicker-walled whistle has a bell like quality that I don't think I've heard on a cheapie one, and the stronger lower register makes a big difference on slow airs.

I don't know how much of the difference might be down to the different design of the head, though.

I'm guessing that it's down to a much better head. All the breath is landing in the right place and producing the strongest tone available.

The Killarney has the advantage of having a fully machined head - it's relatively easy to make sure that the bottom of the windway lines up with the bottom of the ramp and the bore of the whistle. Hey, it must be easy - I've done it myself!

The moulded plastic heads should be able to achieve adequate line-up, but clearly haven't pulled it off reliably. I don't know what the issues are and why it's so hard.

I imagine in any factory situation there won't be just one mould being used to make say heads for D whistles - there are likely to be a number. (I could be wrong, maybe the factories work night and day, maybe there are fewer whistles made than I imagine!) In which case you could imagine that Production Lines 1 and 2 are routinely turning out ripper heads, Production Lines 3 and 4 are making quite good heads, Production Lines 5 and 6 are a bit dodgy, and don't even ask about Production Lines 7 and 8! They're the ones we send to the Colonies....

If your Killarney head happens to be interchangeable with any of the plastic heads, it would be instructive to swap them and see if the better performance follows the head, the tube, or splits between them! I might then be forced to review my theories. Humble Pie eaten while U wait....

This discussion might be helpful and enlightening:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=113236

I suspect that the active ingredient is chimney height, which is a byproduct of wall thickness.

However greater chimney height can be got in other ways, like

1) drilling a tone-hole at an angle

2) adding extra thickness just where the tone-hole is

3) putting a tube in the tone-hole which extends into the bore, or projects out of the tube.

About #1 you need a pretty thick wall to begin with. I used to have a Baroque Alto flute which, for each hand, the hole covered by the middle finger was straight, the hole covered by the index finger was drilled at an upwards angle, and the hole covered by the ring finger was drilled at a downwards angle. This meant that the group of three holes governed by each hand were spread wider in the bore of the flute than on the outside.

About #2 some Eastern European bagpipes have a block of wood left on the chanter in the area of the hole covered by the top-hand index finger. This hole, called mormorka in Bulgarian, raises the lower notes by a semitone. Also some makers of aluminium-tube low whistles and Irish flutes put a band around Hole 3 and/or Hole 6 to increase the wall thickness for the notes A and/or E (on a D flute or whistle).

About #3 the Bulgarian chanter's mormorka is done with a narrow tube that extends into the bore, and some Renaissance Racketts have projecting tubes. Carbony makes low whistles with tubes on certain holes, I believe.

In any case, when I was evaluating a pile of Low D Whistles I found that most makes lost tonal character in the 2nd octave. The one that retained the most character in the 2nd octave was the Susato, and I guessed that it could be due to the Susato, made of rather thick plastic tubing, had a much thicker wall than the various aluminium Low D Whistles I was playing. The Burke had the thinnest wall as I recall.

Here's a Colin Goldie Low D whistle with bands around Hole 3 and Hole 6 to get greater chimney height.

pancelticpiper wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 3:08 am Also some makers of aluminium-tube low whistles and Irish flutes put a band around Hole 3 and/or Hole 6 to increase the wall thickness for the notes A and/or E (on a D flute or whistle).

And do you think that this is done to give some extra hole depth to be able to slant the hole downwards, or just done to "darken" the tone on those notes, pancelticpiper? Or for some other fiendish purpose?

Terry McGee wrote: ↑ If your Killarney head happens to be interchangeable with any of the plastic heads, it would be instructive to swap them and see if the better performance follows the head, the tube, or splits between them!

I regularly use Killarney E♭heads on Generation F and G bodies. They sound and behave like Killarney whistles, as do the other swappable sizes.

Terry McGee wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 8:15 pm If your Killarney head happens to be interchangeable with any of the plastic heads, it would be instructive to swap them and see if the better performance follows the head, the tube, or splits between them! I might then be forced to review my theories.

It isn't! I tried it for size against the foot end of a Feadog and a Gen D when I first got it. Their outer bore seems to be a whisker wider than the Killarney.

The opposite experiment ought to work but I haven't done it, as the Killarney arrived long after I'd melted the glue on the heads of my old whistles to tune them. The plastic seemed to tighten up again later, and it now needs a lot of pressure to adjust them even slightly. Getting them off altogether might risk splitting or distorting them.

pancelticpiper wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 3:08 am 2) adding extra thickness just where the tone-hole is

That's an interesting one, as presumably it isn't technically very difficult. It might add a big chunk to the cost if only done as a special order, but less if it were built into the basic design.

Maybe people don't like the appearance enough to create a demand for it? Or maybe the difference isn't large enough to justify the cost and loss of sleek profile for everyone.

It's bit surprising more attention hasn't been paid to it, given that people often seem to grumble about the bottom D and E on low whistles.

I regularly use Killarney E♭heads on Generation F and G bodies.

They are same as D heads, aren't they? The ones I have are, anyway.

Mr.Gumby wrote: ↑ They are same as D heads, aren't they?

Right. The C head is its own. The B♭and A are also the same except for the latter having a slightly larger socket. The A head fits both bodies but not vice versa.

Moof wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 4:58 pmI've often toyed with the idea of trying flute (I've never played before, unlike whistle, and I love the sound). But then I'm forced back to ground level by the fact that if I can manage to get nerve impingement with my shoulders easy and my hands in front of me, it's idiocy to think I'd last 10 minutes holding a flute!

You could try a quenilla where you hold them out in front of you like a whistle. I've just started experimenting with them in C using birch drilled out with a 16mm bore, then coated with epoxy (reducing the bore to 15mm): they're only marginally heavier than a Generation C. Nice tone over two octaves, but not good enough to sell - coating of epoxy too lumpy and likely too thin in many places, but good enough to confirm that such a wide bore is viable. Next step is to make proper ones entirely out of craft resin, but they'll be heavier. One big advantage over a whistle is that you can play the second octave more quietly than the first octave if you want to.