Chiff and Fipple Forums

I'll bet if you laid out on a table ten randomly chosen whistles made in Ireland, ten made in Pakistan, and ten made in China a pattern would emerge.

I am not even sure I could think of ten whistles made in Ireland to choose from. But my point is, if you are looking to buy an instrument, you look at the instrument, ideally by trying it rather than making your decision based on where it is made.

I had a set of pipes in C, made in 1986 by an unknown maker who was living in Australia at the time. I had met him, became friends with him and had played his instruments. I was taken aside by someone who told me I was about to waste £1400 and if I would get the pipes at all, they wouldn't last. What can I say..I don't think I did too bad.

Mr.Gumby wrote: ↑The pic shows clearly these are Generstion designs, not Feadóg or Oak heads. The Feadóg style heads are usually more often seen in the whistles sold by Chinese sellers. The most likely scenario is that the manufacture of the 'folk' whistle, Generation's cheaper line, has been farmed out to a cheap labour country, just like Clarke has done with its cheaper line, the Meg. Nothing unusual or concerning there

I fully agree that there is nothing unusual or concerning about off-shore production and would have thought it apparent from my earlier comments that I don’t weigh that into my purchase decisions. The Generation site provides separate links to their Folk Whistle and The Original Generation Flageolet. Beyond the color of the mouthpiece, what differences am I overlooking between the folk model,



and the original?



Both are labeled British Made and listed at the same price. If there is OEM or third-party involvement in the one (which I had not previously taken the Kami ad to indicate; my own most recent reference to “the Generation folks” was to the people who produce them), why would there not be in the other?

stringbed wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2023 1:31 am

Nanohedron wrote: ↑I’m given to understand that making musical instruments is big in Sialkot…
It can be a touchy subject, but there is much consensus on having been burned by an attractive price, and I’ve been there.

I’ve been there twice on the flute side — but still at whoppingly greater expense than the lessons learned about the whistle biz. In one case, I realized that artfully worded product description was probably camouflaging Pakistani origin. In the other, the deception about Irish manufacture was overt (without so much as a twnikle in the copywriter’s eye).

In my case there was no camouflage, no subterfuge. I knew what I was getting in terms of provenance, but quality was yet to be learned, for this was back in the day when I thought that a flute was just a tube with holes, so what concern was it of mine where it came from? I saw a bargain, and a contribution to the world economy. But the only return for my investment was bad tone and intonation, and firewood. Indeed, you get what you pay for.

I have to say I get somewhat perplexed when the subject of provenance comes up and people get worked up about it. A good instrument is a good instrument, bad is bad, etc. Generations are what they are, often maligned more than they should be but not without some significant quality control issues. What difference does it make if they're made in Ireland, Britain, Pakistan, or Hoboken, New Jersey? Actually, having spent a lot of time in NJ I'd have some concerns about that last one...

To bring it back into the realm of the original purpose of this thread, I do wonder if any of the people selling the OEM Sindt-esque whistles do much to them in any way. McNeela talks on his site about "hand-finished" instruments of various stripes; I'd love to line his up next to Mullan, Sióg, etc. to see if there's an appreciable difference. I've been happy with the 2 Killarney whistles I have, happy enough that I've pondered getting a couple more in various keys. My sense is that there's at least some amount of QC involved in their manufacture; I wonder what that process is like for the others. Killarney definitely had some hiccups, especially early on, with some duds leaving the premises (seemingly not many, but some). Have we seen the same with Wild Irish, Mullan, Sióg, etc.? Will people start tweaking them like they do Generations, or would that defeat the purpose of spending 5-10x the Generation price?

Mr.Gumby wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2023 4:48 am Some of us remember fondly (well, sort of..) the flutes one man was selling in fair quantities that were basically broomsticks finished with black gloss paint. People bought them, they were in Irish shops, weren't they?

I was just a few days ago trying to remember the name of that "maker!" I believe I've since mixed it up with the name of a current mass-marketer. No worries if you would rather not name here, just wanted to say that yes, they are indeed not forgotten (well, the "flutes" anyway, since I've apparently forgotten the name)!

Mr.Gumby wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2023 4:48 am The most likely scenario is that the manufacture of the 'folk' whistle, Generation's cheaper line, has been farmed out to a cheap labour country, just like Clarke has done with its cheaper line, the Meg. Nothing unusual or concerning there.

The Generation "folk whistles" have the same "British made" (or the newer "Made in England") labels as all their other whistles. They are identical to their other plain brass tubed D whistles, excepting the colour of the head.

Clarke did indeed start having "Meg" whistles manufactured somewhere in the far east, I forget where. They stopped manufacture of "Meg" whistles quite a number of years ago now.

bigsciota wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2023 3:23 pm

Mr.Gumby wrote: ↑Sun Sep 03, 2023 4:48 am Some of us remember fondly (well, sort of..) the flutes one man was selling in fair quantities that were basically broomsticks finished with black gloss paint. People bought them, they were in Irish shops, weren't they?

I was just a few days ago trying to remember the name of that "maker!" I believe I've since mixed it up with the name of a current mass-marketer. No worries if you would rather not name here, just wanted to say that yes, they are indeed not forgotten (well, the "flutes" anyway, since I've apparently forgotten the name)!

Are we perhaps remembering Tom Ganley, from Roscommon?



And this, perhaps, to be one of his flutes?



And was the lathe an English-made Myford? Diagonally sloping belt drive cover, flat ways. Popular with amateur machinists, but rather limiting in what it can hold in the chuck. He appears to be boring out a piece still in the square, packed up on the saddle. No sign of any dust extraction. Occupational Health and Safety hadn't been invented by then....

A little glimpse into how Setanta Whistles get their final finish. "Off the CNC lathe" they have a few scars from where the machine has gripped it.

"John O'Brien of Setanta Whistles takes us behind his workshop door at McNeela Instruments to show us how he gets such a great finish on his premium Setanta brass soprano whistles."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7gFAbevqcE

We don't get to see the CNC lathe. Possibly in another country?

We don't get to see the CNC lathe. Possibly in another country?

Again, what is the problem? Burke whistles have their CNC work farmed out and assemble and finish in house. I don't see anyone frowning at their workflow or questioning their methods.

"Setanta Whistles have been designed and produced in Dublin, Ireland, by John O’Brien ( www.jobwhistles.com), marrying the latest in precision engineering with the personal handcrafted touch people have become accustomed to expect from top quality Irish brands."

If it's the case that the whistles are wholly manufactured elsewhere and merely polished up "behind his workshop door at McNeela Instruments" I would see that as misleading advertising. Just as the authorities in Australia took a dim view of Woolworths promoting their bread rolls made from frozen Irish dough sticks as "baked freshly in store daily".

But maybe I'm just old fashioned? I am old!

Not whistles but pipes, I know of two instances:

There was a guy in Canada who claimed to be a pipe maker. Pipe-spotters were certain that the pipes were made by a certain Sialkot maker, probably the best Sialkot maker actually. However many buyers were tricked into thinking they were buying Canadian-made pipes.

He was utterly exposed when a piper appeared at his "workshop" unannounced and found the guy with boxes of pipes from Pakistan, some still in original factory wrappings, some being re-packaged to send to customer, with nary a lathe or tool of any kind in the workshop.

There was an Irish guy selling on Ebay claiming to sell pipes made by himself in Ireland. The pipes were obviously Pakistani. As I recall he was discussed here.

These things happen.

These things happen

They certainly do. They're malignant and deceptive.

But they're not the same thing as outsourcing cnc operations, which is a legitimate production method.

Is it just me who’s surprised to learn (in the Sentanta vid) that straight brass tubing is made on CNC lathes?

What about outsourcing more normal machining operations or indeed hand-turning operations? Aren't they equally valid? Or do we think that it's more valid to outsource a CNC operation because the precision should put it beyond human frailties? And who writes the code? Who sets up the machines? Who conducts Quality Control?

And let's imagine if full disclosure was at work. Would we expect a scenario involving outsourcing the main construction to Pakistan being equally attractive to the buying public?

And what evidence do we have that the whistles were designed in Ireland? And by the seller? Do we reasonably assume that even a well-accredited Irish whistle player has the technical skills needed to design a whistle?

stringbed wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 6:17 am Is it just me who’s surprised to learn (in the Sentanta vid) that straight brass tubing is made on CNC lathes?

Good question, stringbed. I might have thought a CNC mill, rather than a lathe, might be employed in the drilling of finger holes. Which are allegedly done to a precision of "2 thousandths of a mil" - ie 2 microns! But then what would explain the scars that John is finessing off? More explanation needed.

Hmmm, notice how I immediately assumed that the fingerholes in the tube would be drilled. Even though we'd recently seen an example of the holes being punched in what looked like a gang-punching arrangement.

So what is more likely in this modern age - punching, drilling, milling, other? And what would best explain the scarring that John needed to sand off? With a 100 grit sanding block to start with....